series 60 won't start

[merle&louise]

Has anyone had difficulty starting their series 60?

When I turn the key nothing happens; I turn the ignition key back to the stop position and try to start it again. Samething happens - nothing. After 3 or 4 tries it will start.

Any ideas on what it could be?:confused:

[tdelorme]

Hummm...I've never heard of that happening in a PREVOST. Must be something that Newell did. :D:D

[VegasDogMan]

Tuga:

Just a guess.... Possibly a bad relay connecting Ignition Switch to DDEC Computer.

Sounds like no power getting to engine control system.

Good Luck.

[Kevin Erion]

I think the Newell knows the owner was driving a Prevost, now it's not happy! Just remind it that you are very loyal.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tuga....you need a wiring diagram from Newell. Follow the circuit from the key switch to the starter solenoid and check each component individually.

I think it is safe to make a generalization however. When you say nothing happens do you mean literally nothing? No click, no sound, nothing? If that is the case the first thing I would check is to see if you have a relay that is energized when you turn the key, and that in turn closes the circuit to power the starter solenoid. If that is how your start circuit is set up I would verify you are getting power from the key switch to the relay coil 100% of the time.

If not, check the key switch. Do you have a rear start switch like we have? If so verify that will work every time. If it does check the switch that closes the circuit to make the key switch work. If not, and the relay coil gets power every time the key is turn to the start position check for continuity across the contacts supplying power to the starter solenoid. You just need to follow the power. You need power on the hot side of the key switch. You need power from that to the rear, then to the starter solenoid, etc. As soon as you find where power stops you found the problem.

If there is good continuity you can focus on the starter solenoid, but if that was the problem it is highly likely you would have heard it click.

There are a host of other potential problems, but they do not meet your description of the problem. A neutral position switch prevents starting with the coach in gear. If that is faulty nothing happens when you try to start, but you will rule that out if you get power to the starter solenoid relay.

Your DDEC could be a factor, but on our coaches I do not see DDEC preventing the starter from engaging.

The true strating point however is a wiring diagram that shows all the components in the circuit from the power supply to the key switch to the relays to the starter solenoid to the rear start switch (if equipped).

Good luck.

[merle&louise]

Jon,

When I try to start it, I can't hear anything at all. Dead silence.

When I had the coach at Birdland Coach services Mike Weil tried to start it from the engine compartment. It wouldn't start because the ignition switch was not in the on position up front (that is how Newell wires it). Then when we tried to start it from the driver's seat it still wouldn't start. He found that start switch in the engine compartment was bad due to age and he changed it. That is when I started having the problem that exists now. Maybe the switch that he changed is faulty! I'll check the relay tomorrow to see if it is getting voltage.

Thanks for the help. I'll post the outcome.

[Orren Zook]

Tuga, you might check the starter solenoid too

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Check the switch that selects front start or rear start. That sounds like it may be it.

Orren, if he hears nothing it is likely he isn't even getting power to the starter solenoid. If the starter solenoid had a bad coil it would never start because it would not pull the contacts together, and if the contacts were burned he would hear them closing. After opening and closing them a few times he would get some power to the starter and he would be OK, but since he hears nothing I think his problem is upstream from the starter solenoid.

[dalej]

Tuga a few few year back, I stopped for fuel and when I went to pull ahead the engine wouldn't start. I had this happen a few more times over the next 6 months or so. What I found is the relay right next to the driver in the electrial panel was going bad. I found it by turning the key on and off see which one energized, had Jan do the key while I found the relay that made the noise. Then turned on/off to see if I could land on a time when it didn't work and checked for voltage, didn't have any, so had to change the relay. It solved my problem. Hope this helps.

[Orren Zook]

I went back and reread Tuga's post Jon, a defective relay does sound most likely

[merle&louise]

I tried starting the engine from the engine compartment. It made a clicking sound at first, then when I tried it again it started up. I started it about 6 more times and it never failed once. Then I tried starting it from the driver's seat and it started every time.

When I said earlier that I heard dead silence, I failed to mention that I was starting it from the driver's seat! Duh!

I spoke to Tommy Key at Newell, and he thinks that it is the starting solenoid. Can a solenoid be tested?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I just replaced a starter on Debs brothers 60 Series. His was clicking. He was down South but headed to Peoria, Ill. with a load. They wanted 475 for a Delco rebuilt plus 2 hrs labor out on the road. He called me and asked me to check my guy and I got 175 for a rebuilt or 240 for a new Delco. The prices are all over the place out there do not get robbed.

There is another exotic manufacturer of starter that Detroit sometimes used and it is VERY expensive, the name eludes me now, but if you should happen to have it it can be replaced with a Delco.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tuga,

Diagnosing problems long distance is nothing but trouble because when we are right there, in person we are using all our senses. If the clicking sound you hear is in the vicinity of the starter that is the problem. Be aware however that to energize the coil on the starter solenoid takes a bit of power so it is not beyond the possibility that a relay big enough to supply that power will also make a clicking noise.

The noise from our starter solenoids however is hard to ignore. It is loud and it is located at the starter. A starter solenoid can be tested, but you will have to disassemble the thing from the bus. Otherwise when you are testing for resistance across the contacts the bus will be starting, opening them back up. You may be able to disconnect the large positive cable. I don't know how much access you have. In my bus I have a load of stuff in the way.

[merle&louise]

Joe,

Thanks for the information. If you could I would appreciate the name and phone number (if you have it) of the supplier. I spoke with Newell today and they said to energize the ignition key and see if I have 12 volts on the 16 ga. black wire that goes to the starter solenoid; if I do have 12 volts going to it the solenoid is bad. I will try that on Friday; can't get to it until then.

Jon,

I understand the problems with diagnosing long distance, and believe me I am not the best person to relay the symptoms. It only failed to start one time when I was in the engine compartment and the clicking seemed to come from the area of the starter. I have started it about 30 times in the last few days and the damn thing started EVERYTIME!!

There is plenty room to work on the starter so testing it should be easy. We removed the 16ga red cable from the solenoid yesterday; if I understand you with it disconnected can I test for continuity?
Completely removing the starting solenoid will be hindered by a screw which has to be removed (it holds a wire that is attached to the solenoid). The head on this screw is like an inverted TORK; a TORK fits a female screw and this screw would require a female socket to unscrew it. Until I can find a female socket like this, I can not remove the solenoid.

[dalej]

Tuga, just use a regular sae or metric socket.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Tuga,

If it is the solenoid it is not continuity across the coil you will be checking because the clicking sound indicates the solenoid coil is OK.

I suspect if the engine is not being spun over by the starter there may be burnt contacts in the solenoid. All the solenoid is doing is completing the circuit from the big positive cable going to it to the starter itself. If the contacts are in bad shape they may not be carrying the power through them to spin the starter.

I have not looked to see if the starter solenoid has a way to check for resistance from that big positive cable to the starter, but that is what may be the problem. When the contacts are closed there is so much resistance power is just not flowing to the starter.

But it could be other things as well. The starter itself could be bad, there could be a bad cable connection, bad connections at the solenoid so it is not closing the contacts with sufficient force, or even bad ground connections from the chassis batteries. A starter pulls a lot of juice so it needs good connections and contacts all the way around.

Check the cheap stuff first. My philosophy. Not scientific, but eventually I solve my problems.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Tuga, if you have to, use visegrips to get the bolt out, and replace it with new, if it gets too buggered up!

You should disconnect the ground at the battery.

At least tape the disconnected hot wire at the solenoid!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Toth Automotive
Landsing, Ill.
708-895-2505

The rebuilds (175 bucks) are done in house and done correctly. That is what we bought.

There has GOT to be someone local for a comparable price that does the same quality rebuilds.

If not I can ship you one but I'll bet it will cost 60 or 70 bucks UPS.

The shop at any local trucking company could probably steer you in the right direction.

If I had to pull the starter to get at the solonoid I would just replace the whole thing.

[Orren Zook]

Tuga,

I usually have new Delco Remy's for $200 - one size fits all, the only difference is 11 or 12 teeth on the starter. Joe's right about shipping it LA being a big part of the expense, hopefully you will find a cheap one locally there.

[merle&louise]

Thanks everyone, I won't be able to check anything today Karen is having a medical procedure done. I agree with you Jon, I would prefer to check the cheap stuff first.

Joe, thanks for the name and address. I will check to see if someone locally does re-builds, if not I will call your supplier.

Jim, I found a TORX socket that should fit. Haven't had a chance to check it yet.

Jon, I agree with you and Tommy Key I think that it is the solenoid.

Orren, thanks for the advice; $200 is not bad for a remy. There is a place in Spendora, TX that re-built my power steering pump in January. Maybe they could re-build this starter and solenoid. I'll call them tomorrow.

[merle&louise]

Sorry I am late in posting, but it was the starting solenoid. I changed it and it starts everytime. Thanks for all of the help.:D