Nitrogen in tires

[kenrobertson]

Good Day All - I need a little feedback on a subject I know you must have discussed. We ( Parliament Coach) are looking at a nitrogen generator and fill system for use in our service dept. - How many of you have had nitro installed? How many would if it were more available? Based on the initial cost of equipment, and the time involved to install, it looks like we would need to charge around $250 for a complete, 8 tire service. Is this a reasonable figure? Any other input as to pros and cons would be greatly appreciated

Thanks, Ken

[Coloradobus]

Sorry Ken,

We will stick with "air", since its free, except for the cost of a COSTCO 150 psi compressor that we can use around the house as well as for the coach.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I know people who are currently running it in the steer tires on a big rig. It expands when it gets hot to the same degree as air and, pressures drop the same when it gets cold too.

I was drawn to the claims of hydrogen eliminating false alerts on wireless tire pressure sensors on cold mornings and I can tell you FOR SURE it does not remedy the situation.

In fact I still owe Jon and his wife a meal over it. The tires on our bus are all 2000 tire codes. I have lots of evident cracking on the outside but the inside of them are void of even the smallest of cracks that IMO blows the theory of moisture ruining them from the inside out.

[MangoMike]

Hi Ken,

Always good to see a post from a sponsor.

There was a lot of discussion about this a while back.

Here's one thread:

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?p=24329&highlight=nitrogen#post24329

Didn't seem to generate much positive interest.

Mike

[Joe Cannarozzi]

There is another older lengthy thread in there too

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Ken, will you be putting that into the rustproofing department? :D
JIM:)

[kenrobertson]

Thanks Guys -
I appreciate the feedback - We needed to hear the " other side " of the story - The Nitro salesman has obviously been doing his job - His claims include, but are not limited to: cooler tires - longer tire life - better fuel economy - less damage to the ozone layer because...............well, you get the picture. I do have to admit that the Indy Car guys are sold on the stuff - We were setting up our display at the St Pete Grand Prix, yesterday, and every transport was carrying dozens of nitro tanks.

We look forward to seeing everyone in Tennessee.

Thanks again, Ken

[kenrobertson]

No Jim - Not enough room - It's full of Rust-o-leum cans.

But thanks for asking, Ken

[jack14r]

Also remember our atmosphere is almost 80% nitrogen already.I think that most shops do not have refigerated dryers in their compressed air system which means that they have moisture and this is the real problem.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I use Equal in my tires. I break down my own wheels. I fill my tires from the bus air system and from my shop compressor which hasn't been drained in 8 years.

I have always had the Equal in my tires bone dry when I broke down my wheels. No moisture despite I am doing it all wrong.

The nitrogen salesman is full of BS. We don't use it in plane tires except those with very high pressures and that is only because most air systems top out at 150 to 175.

Ken, invest the money in slack adjuster polish or a plastic front shield disposal bin.

[Jerry Winchester]

Ken, invest the money in slack adjuster polish or a plastic front shield disposal bin.

Nice touch A1. You're on top of your game today.........

[flyu2there]

Hold on there a minute.....Every airliner that anyone has been in for the last 30 years has its tires filled with Dry Nitrogen. It's not because of pressure either, or for that matter, not a mandate from the FAA.....it's because the cheap b$&%$ds want to save money. Nitrogen does not transmit or develop as much heat as air (I believe air is around 78% nitrogen, 20% oxygen and 2% miscellaneous stuff...nitrogen being inert). Oxygen is the perp here, it transmits heat and its explosive when it does that, not to mention humadiditty. A little moisture with this mixture and your tires a really full of explosive steam while driving across the West Texas Desert in the Summer.

Add that mixture to some inexpensive re-caps (I know none of us does that) and that partially explains the presence of allegators on the highway, expecially in the Summer in the Desert Southwest. Of course had you a Lexan Shield that would not be a worry but the "nude:D" bussers amongst us might well be talking to the insurance company.

Buy a set of tires at Costco today and they will be filled with Nitrogen.

Another upshot is that Nitrogen is cheap, rent a tank from your local welding supply (be certain to get dry nitrogen...they run the stuff thru some kind of drier to jerk out all of the water)...then go for it. Several hundred bucks for a Nitrogen Fill is a bit rich...buy it in tanks...do the job for 75.00



John

[kenrobertson]

You guy's might just be on to something..........Recycle the plastic shields, mix the powdered plastic with WD40, market the resulting goo as slack adjuster polish.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

John,

This is real simple. Show me the data that supports your contention, not from a company trying to sell nitrogen or equipment.

When we were debating this I could find reams of information refuting the benefits that were espoused for nitrogen. I could find no independent testing laboratory data supporting the benefits.

The reason we use nitrogen in struts and high pressure tires is it is the cheapest gas to liquify and put in high pressure tanks for use when compressed air pressures are inadequate.

I see nitrogen in tires as the equivalent of the $4.00 Starbucks coffee. If it make you feel good it is worth it.

BTW, nitrogen is not inert.

[flyu2there]

Jon,

Nitrogen, by itself is an inert gas. Yes, I know, you can mix it with other things and it becomes volitile but stand alone, it cannot do a thing.

I am certainly not trying to sell the stuff but.....it does work. The airlines would not use it unless it saved them money. Try it in your airplane, I did...it works. Longer tire life, less leakage........it's cheap to try and believe me, it does work....not at 200 plus dollars however!:D

[rickdesilva]

We're looking at investing in the machines at our stores, they are expensive and I really doubt the return is there for us but, apparently with tire pressure monitors becoming standard equipment on cars, my understanding is nitrogen is less inclined to set off the Tire Pressure Light when there is big temperature change. I need to do some more research before we invest, but my friends with highline stores swear by it, but those are people who have the $ to pay for the service. Our customers don't comprehend paying for air, then again who would believe that we would be paying more for water than we pay for gas!

[flyu2there]

Jon,

Here's your sign....

"Remove The Oxygen And Stop The Rot

To stop this decomposition you simply need to remove the oxygen from the ‘air’. (Incidentally, removing oxygen also means that you remove water because water is two parts Hydrogen gas, and one part Oxygen gas.)

Removing Oxygen from products is not new, we do it all the time with our food and drink. In fact, if we did not remove the oxygen our food would not likely last long enough to make it into the hands of the consumers – or it would taste stale and unappealing.

Nitrogen In Tires

Here are a few other benefits of using Nitrogen in tires:

[1] Nitrogen is denser than Oxygen: This means the larger molecules escape less easily from tires resulting in a more gradual loss of pressure over time. According to the Michelin Tire Manual, a tire that is inflated with Nitrogen loses its pressure 3 times slower than if it were inflated with air.

[2] Nitrogen is moisture free: Pure Nitrogen inflated tires experience less steel belt and rubber degradation. Nitrogen use also reduces valve and wheel corrosion.

[3] Nitrogen provides longer tire life: Nitrogen inflated tire run cooler and require less maintenance according to the Goodyear application bulletin.

[4] Nitrogen is non-flammable: Nitrogen technology has been used in aircraft, military and race car technology for over thirty years.

Does Joe Consumer ‘Get It’?

But can we expect ‘Joe Consumer’ to start paying for this new ‘air’ anytime soon? As always, the answer is “it depends.” If enough businesses and corporations get behind the idea and promote it steadily, uniformly and explain the numerous safety and cost savings, then eventually the message should make it through.

However, you do need to be realistic – it’s still considered by Joe Consumer to be ‘new’ and anything ‘new’ is usually avoided until it becomes familiar – it’s called the product adoption process.

It’s Still Weird Science

The other point to consider here is ‘selling Nitrogen’ is still science – and most people are not that comfortable with the whole science thing. And if you recall I mentioned that regular everyday air is 78% nitrogen anyway – so what would they be paying for?

Regular air is approximately 80% nitrogen anyway, are we to believe that an extra 20% makes all the difference… Ironically we now know that the answer is yes.

A Moral Dilemma

You and I both know that if using Nitrogen means your client’s tires last longer they will save money by not having to purchase as many tires. So Nitrogen use could mean less tire sales… And that’s the moral dilemma for you. Do you want to make a few dollars on tire inflation services that might ultimately reduce your tire sales or do you want to keep on doing business the way it is now?

Make Mine A Light Air

One thing’s for sure, with regular air and ‘diet air’ (or is that Air2 with half the carbs…) Nitrogen as a tire inflation option will slowly seep into the main stream (and yes the ‘seep’ pun was intentional).

Now take a deep breath… you just inhaled 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and a few other lesser gases. Could you tell? Did it taste or smell different? That’s part of the challenge isn’t it. If regular customers are wary about the things they cannot see, what makes you think selling ‘new air’ is going to be any easier.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=James_Burchill"

I know it's not consumer reports but...


John

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Hey Joe C., maybe you don't owe Jon and Di a dinner after all?

That was an impressive post by John (flyu2there), but hell I don't know nothing anyway? :(

Gary S.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Rick that claim about eliminating low temp/low pressure false alarms for the remote air pressure sensors are bunk. I am giving you that information FIRST HAND. I have compared tires with and without the stuff, on the same rig, initially inflated to the same pressures, and the pressure losses on a cold morning were the same. We also made hot pressure tests and the expansion was also the same.

A tire initially inflated to 100 at 75 degree dropped to 86 at 40 degree just like the tire with air and the alarm goes off at 89.

I think Jon and Die deserve a free meal every time they encounter any one of us. With all the advice we have gotten and all the info he has shared.

The club ambassador of good will, Hands down.

[truk4u]

Geez Joe, take it easy, A-1 makes most of this stuff up!:p Just take a look at his slack adjusters, they're dirty and greasy... Next thing you know he'll be charging us for all this information and he ain't going to be cheap, just ask Di.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

That is the way I see it. I do not think we could even begin to imagine all the behind the scenes things he has done to help folks.

The guy hauls around orphan dogs in his plane to get them placed in good houses.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Here is the short version.........

http://expert.fleetowner.com/tires/2007/07/23/nitrogen-filled-truck-tires/

Tire companies apparently only are acknowledging there is not harm in using nitrogen a position I hold.

Folks filling tires with nitrogen are inclined to boast of the benefits to support their decision to invest in the cost of using notrogen, but there is not a single automobile manufacturer filling tires with nitrogen or specifying it. This is critical because with the CAFE standards if it raised the MPG a tenth of a percent they would be doing it and justifying by whatever means was necessary in the owner's manual such as to make the tire pressure sensors work better, a nasty warranty issue for all manufacturers.

[garyde]

I'm wondering if Nitrogen in tires is the older generations equivilant to the me generations oxygen bars!

[gmcbuffalo]

I have yet to have a problem with anything put into my tires, All the problems have been from sun light and contact with the road. I also doubt that air in tires is a fire hazard since it is all around. Does an air filled tire make a louder bang than a nitrogen filled tire on blow out? If I had a large tire to fill out on the runway I would rather do it with big tank with lots of pressure pushing it out than a 150 # compressor.

GregM

[tdelorme]

Nitrogen is highly recommened for anyone who is racing a Prevost. Otherwise, air will serve you fine and for fewer Lewbucks.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon,

Nitrogen, by itself is an inert gas. Yes, I know, you can mix it with other things and it becomes volitile but stand alone, it cannot do a thing.

I am certainly not trying to sell the stuff but.....it does work. The airlines would not use it unless it saved them money. Try it in your airplane, I did...it works. Longer tire life, less leakage........it's cheap to try and believe me, it does work....not at 200 plus dollars however!:D


John, Just for the record.

There are six inert gases; Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon, and Radon.

Nitrogen is an unreactive gas.

JIM

[flyu2there]

Yes you are right...the Noble Gasses, however as I am certain you are aware Nitrogen is "considered" in it's pure state to be a mostly inert gas, especially when you compare it to Oxygen.

Right off your link Jon..... http://fleetowner.com/management/fleet_nitrogren_beats_air/index.html


John

[kenrobertson]

WOW - Great feedback, even if it might be a little too technical for this farm boy. Thanks, Guys, I really do appreciate all your input. I'll try to digest all this info between now and P5.

See allyall in Tennessee,

Ken

[Jon Wehrenberg]

John,

Quick.....forward that to the automobile manufacturers. You have no idea how much that savings will mean to those struggling to meet the CAFE standards.

Nitrogen can't hurt, but in my mind the benefits of nitrogen rank right up there with man made global warming.

[flyu2there]

Ahhhh Jon,

Do I detect a minor change in your attitude about nitrogen??

To be truthful, I run compressed air in my bus tires but have often thought about the "designer gas". I do however run it in my airplane and I do not have to air up the tires every two weeks like I did before the change.

Probably the smartest way to address this issue is to try it, but only when you install new skins....that way there is at least a bit of a yardstick to measure from....

Finally, I doubt I would pay anyone 200+ dollars for the nitrogen.........I rented a full tank from Airgas for 40.00.

John

[gmcbuffalo]

These compressors what % od nitrogen do they put out?
GregM