Groeneveld CPL Systems Auto Grease System

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Has anyone heard of this piece of equipment?

Groeneveld CPL Systems Auto Grease System I have one of these units on my bus. It is tucked away in the compartment behind the right tag, just in front of the engine compartment. It uses 0 Weight Green Grease, and is pumped to the zircs on a time basis.

Apparently it automatically greases all the zircs in the bus, with the exception of the drive line and U-joints. :confused: I guess!?

http://www.cplsystems.com/

Does anybody have any knowledge of this unit ?

Gary S.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I have seen many of them, from a distance and in passing and when they are working correctly they should do a pretty good job, in a perfect world.

They never interested me and this is why:

The resistance at all grease points are not equal and using a device like that some grease points will get too much an others not enough.

Being one who greases with a manual gun I can tell you that the difference in the amount of force required to pump grease into different fittings is quite substantial. Some take it VERY easy while others you gotta force it in.

This situation is compounded by the fact that you really will have a hard time coming to this conclusion, if it is occurring if you have this device. After capping all the fittings with a plastic feeder line other than experiancing a part failure or some pretty good eyes and the necessity of crawling underneath anyway to look I don't know how you would.

Also sometimes fittings go bad in a manner that does not allow them to take grease and need replacing. Does the manufacturer talk about this situation and allow for it in some way short of a part failure?

Even if the design addresses all these issues I have saved myself thousands of dollars in parts and downtime while under a number of different pieces of equipment with grease gun in hand catching other things at the very beginning stages of starting to go bad. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ALMOST EVERY TIME I GO UNDER SOMETHING. Is that something that you really want to eliminate?

I suppose the folks that are buying bran new buses and trading them frequently would maybe be candidates for something like this.

You would never see that on anything I ever owned. If the guys who know me ever saw something like that on anything of mine I would never live it down.

I will give you a good compromise. You could use their fittings and feed lines and run them all to a central easy to access location at a labeled panel. Peterbilt does this on the newer stuff for clutch and transmission components that require grease and are hard to access. Still The compromise I've suggested is not intended to eliminate the need to put your coveralls on or for you to sell your creeper.

Aren't you glad you asked:rolleyes: You do have a pair of coveralls and a creeper don't you?

[tdelorme]

I once had a John Deere hay bailer with an auto lub system. It worked fine for the first couple of years, but as time went by the tubes got bent and some zerks got grease and others not. I ended up pulling all the tubing off and just used a gun. I personally would not want that system on a bus, but it may work fine for some owners.
I wonder how it controls the amount of grease each zerk gets. Some fittings don't require as much grease as others and I just don't know how an auto lub system would address that issue.
After going to the link in Gary's post, this system looks to be much more sophisticated than my old John Deere system, so who knows, it may well work better than I think.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ditto what Joe and Ted said. If I had that on my bus it would be taken off.

To be more specific than Joe, I guarantee that system is not connected to the driveshaft spline. So you are either going to have to get under there to grease that or it will run dry. Ditto the U-joints.

What might be an appropriate amount of grease for a slack adjuster is way too much for the slack adjuster shaft. If you get enough grease in the slack adjusters, it is likely you have too much in the shaft area and that will keep your disk brakes from releasing.

The front end is a nightmare because of the different pressures and volumes each fitting is going to take. Even if we assume some engineer spent the time required to determine the orfice size to insert in the grease lines so each fitting gets the correct amount under the correct pressure, just having the wheels turned or more or less weight on the front axle will vary how a fitting takes grease.

Do yourself a favor and lose the system Gary. In fact pray there has been no damage as a result of the system. I guarantee the U-joints and axle spline are dry.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Well that is a fine how do you do?

Here I thought the original owner of the bus knew what was what when he had it installed on the bus when it was built? He owned a trucking company with over 50 trucks or more and each of them had one of these systems.

Since the bus is still brand new to me, I will watch it very closely. I hope it is doing what it is suppose to do?

I do know when it was serviced before we bought it, all fittings were checked and verified working, as well as those fittings not being auto greased by the system were greased properly? ( I wasn't under there, but I am hoping they were greased properly :confused: )

COVERALLS, nobody told me I had to own a pair of coveralls? :eek: :D

Gary S

[dalej]

Gary, when we all get to Tennessee we can remove all that stuff you don't need. You can sit in the bus and we will let you know when you can come out! :)

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Gary, when we all get to Tennessee we can remove all that stuff you don't need. You can sit in the bus and we will let you know when you can come out! :)


Hey Dale that's an idea.............a Lousy idea ! But thanks for offering your help, it really means, a lot ? !

Besides, I should be able to find a pair of coveralls by then? Not that I plan on putting them on or anything. Now the real problem is finding them in Peg's size ? :eek:

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hey Gary,

Here are some things to ponder. (That TN talk that means think about.)

On a truck you can tilt the hood forward and literally see every single grease fitting, front to rear. Easy to verify everything is getting a shot of grease.

Since the U-joint and axle spline are rotating, how did he hook those up? Same with the small U-joint in the steer compartment. Will you buy me dinner at Ruth's Chris Steak house if I can find at least five grease fittings not even connected?

Your only way to verify the system works is to grease it using the system, and then get under the bus and go front to rear and look at every single joint to look for evidence of fresh grease. Personally on the steering links I never pump until grease shoots out, but watch for the rubber seal to expand a little. I have no clue how you will know they got grease unless you pump until the seal leaks.

On the steering linkage, how do you know the movement of the linkage and fittings has not compromised a hose? No matter whether you keep the system or not it sounds like you are still getting under the bus to get up close and personal with the greasy parts to make sure they were lubed.

Kind of defeats the purpose.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Hey Gary,

Here are some things to ponder. (That TN talk that means think about.)

On a truck you can tilt the hood forward and literally see every single grease fitting, front to rear. Easy to verify everything is getting a shot of grease.

Since the U-joint and axle spline are rotating, how did he hook those up? Same with the small U-joint in the steer compartment. Will you buy me dinner at Ruth's Chris Steak house if I can find at least five grease fittings not even connected?

Your only way to verify the system works is to grease it using the system, and then get under the bus and go front to rear and look at every single joint to look for evidence of fresh grease. Personally on the steering links I never pump until grease shoots out, but watch for the rubber seal to expand a little. I have no clue how you will know they got grease unless you pump until the seal leaks.

On the steering linkage, how do you know the movement of the linkage and fittings has not compromised a hose? No matter whether you keep the system or not it sounds like you are still getting under the bus to get up close and personal with the greasy parts to make sure they were lubed.

Kind of defeats the purpose.


Well Jon, to address your first issue: I wrote in my first post, " Apparently it automatically greases all the zircs in the bus, with the exception of the drive line and U-joints. I guess!?"

No, I haven't actually put on my coveralls yet, I am just going by what the service guys told me, about making sure everything was greased, either automatically or via the hand method by their service techs.

No, I am also not saying the automatic way is better or even as good as your way, Jon, but do you still have an old style wash tub and line to hang your clothes on, or do you do it in those new fangled stacked washer and dryer do hickies? :D

Anyway, I wouldn't doubt there are at least 5 zircs on the bus that don't get greased with my automatic greaser, but they do get greased when a service is performed manually..... ! SO THERE.

Jon, If you want to get under my bus, and point out all this stuff to me and everybody else and use my bus as a hands on EXPERIMENT in greasing, bring your grease gun, and I will be happy to COOK you a First Class Steak on my InfraRed Grill. ( just you and Di, not all the other lookie loo's )( Sorry Lou not talking about you ). Besides Ruth Chris has nothing on me! :)

Actually Jon, it would be worth every oz (of filet, or hamburger) to have you check all these fittings and let me know if they are getting grease. I will bring the brochure of my auto grease unit for you to look at and drool over just in case you decide to order one after the rally?

The greasing unit works via a timer not a particular pressure so it pumps "0 Weight Green Grease" to all fittings that are on line, so from my understanding it is contiually supplying fresh grease to the connected fittings?

That is all I know, and I don't know anymore. :) Hey guys, I only have 2,000 miles on my new toy, sheeeesh give me a break will ya?

Gary S.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

One of you guys going to the rally needs to make sure to get a set of coveralls in his hands cause I don't think he has any.;)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

All kidding aside, on our coaches there are some fittings that you want to lightly grease because over greasing actually does more harm than not greasing. The pivot shaft on the slack adjusters is an example of this and Prevost has had disk brake pads that would not release, overheating the disk and wearing the pads because excessive grease on the shaft created a hydraulic lock preventing slight retraction of the calipers when the brakes were released.

Other fittings are the reverse. They appear to have a serious thirst for grease. I don't know where the grease goes, but the fittings take quite a few shots before it is evident grease is reaching the affected parts.

I am unfamiliar with the IFS so it may have more fittings than the solid axle. It may or may not take varying amounts of grease. That may be the difference between our coaches that makes the system more acceptable, but it does nothing however to address the issue with the slack adjuster shaft.

But what defeats the benefits is if you need to get a gun under there to do the U-joints or splines, why not just do the rest of the fittings, and at the same time control the amount and visually verify the fitting is taking grease in the right amount? It is my guess that unless the owner was on a 5000 to 6000 mile oil change schedule it is probable nobody got under there at the Prevost prescribed intervals to lubricate the parts not served by the greasing system.

BTW, we do have a set of clothes lines and Di does hang our laundry. We did trade in the wash board for a wringer washer however. If you have a stacked washer thingy then Di cannot turn the crank on the wringer.

[garyde]

Hi Gary. In reading the website information, they speak of Heavy duty use and off road use. I don't think this would apply to any Prevost in use. It sounds to me the previous owner wanted to deal with the grease issue as he does in his buisness. I do not think Prevost nor a converter would install such a system. I could be wrong however. I also agree with Joe in that a mechanic or an owner is better served greasing the coach by hand in so doing inspecting the under carriage at the same time.

[BrianE]

Hey, this is another one on me. I just had a front end alignment and the tech noted that my king pins were dry. I just started doing my own lube jobs with a Lincoln 14v grease gun that I'm very proud of and I know I saw grease squirting out when I lubed the pins (the book calls them knuckle pins). I was told in no uncertain terms that the king pins will not lube properly unless the load is removed from them by jacking the front wheels. Do the experts agree? Jon, how about a little grease monkey dissertation at SV?

And Joe, what's this about not coming to the rally. Do I have to come home via I-80 and ride around with you in the Pete in order to get to meet you?

[Kevin Erion]

I have been told the same thing on front end king pins, you need to take the weight off the wheels first, then fill with grease.

[truk4u]

Truck greasing 101, jack the front wheels!;)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Well guys here is another topic that needs to be investigated to separate the OWT from the truth.

I have greased my bus both ways. Even with the pit I still support the coach at the body support points, and probably about 50% of the time I dump air in the air bags after it is supported so I can have zero air pressure anywhere in the entire air system.

But after seeing Brian's post on this I got to thinking about how greasing takes place in the real world.

I have never seen and grease monkey working in a pit greasing trucks put a jack or support under the front axle when greasing kingpins. I am not saying it does not happen, I have just never seen it.

Then I got to thinking of the first 3 or 4 years I owned my first coach and had it serviced by someone else, mostly Prevost. In every case the bus was raised using the lifting devices Prevost still uses that have a fork go under the tires and then lift at four points simultaneously. In every single case of when my coach was serviced prior to me doing my own work the weight was always on the front axle because the bus was being lifted by the tires.

So I got to thinking how they do it today. I have most recently been in Nashville and they have lifted coaches (not mine) using the four electric lifts under the tires. I did see a service bay that had a pit and it appeared the pit had supports to lift the axles, but I got the impression the pit was for alignments.

Who else has watched coaches being greased at Prevost, and how was the coach supported? By the axle in the front or under the wheels?

Truk, have you ever seen the guy in the truck stop lifting the axle while the truck was over the pit being greased? Joe? Orren?

[Kevin Erion]

At Prevost Mira Loma they have in ground lifts that pick the bus up by the axles, not the wheels.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jacksonville has only the wheel lifts and has no pit. Ditto for NJ.

[tdelorme]

Prevost Texas has wheel lifts, but I did not see them lubing a coach so who knows how they do it. Who makes the Prevost front axle?

[JIM KELLER]

Jacksonville Prevost has lifts that raise the Bus at frame and suspension points. All the wheels and tires remain free for inspection and removal. I have always used this facility for service since the purchased of our Bus. We have an appointment April 9th on our way to Sevierville.

P.S. The lifts are twin posts, one set in the front and one set towards the rear.

[truk4u]

No, you don't see anyone in the shops taking the pressure off the wheel by using a bottle jack because they don't give a shit.

I do it the old way, maybe it doesn't really matter anymore, but I can tell you from experience the grease gun pressure to pump some of the zerks feel less with the axle supported.

Do it any way you want and remember, I'm the anal one who has to grease the driveline after each trip, so my opinion is probably like asking Jdub and A-1if they would like a price on a new Lexan Shield.:rolleyes:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If you get one of the 120 pound drum type grease guns you will notice the finger pressure on the trigger is the same whether the axle is supported or not. Man up and get some equipment instead of building tricycles.

I honestly cannot tell the difference between when the bus is carried by the wheels or supported with no wheel pressure on the ground. I would like to know the procedure, but not from the Prevost techs. Lately the stories I am hearing about Prevost service has made me scared of them.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

According to Hendrickson the kingpin lubrication procedure specifies the suspension must be loaded. It specifically calls for the wheels to be on the ground.

It is down a ways on this link:

http://www.hendrickson-intl.com/pdfs/Truck_PDFs/Softek/tp257/Sec_6_7b.pdf

I will keep looking for other procedures. I think we have Rockwell front axles. This discussion does not apply to the IFS.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Let me help out here a little. I have never taken the weight off the front end for grease.

I had a thruster bearing fail on the original left king-pin last year in the Pete at 950,000 miles. This is a needle roller bearing that they put at the bottom of the eye of the axle where the pin goes through so that the weight of the axle is supported by it instead of the bottom eye of the spindle having to carry that weight.

When I removed the king-pins they were in such an unbelievably unworn condition I kept them for a trophy, as a badge of honor, just so I could show off to guys like you.

In the first photo I purposely put the bushing next to the king pin so you could see where the wear ridge SHOULD be after that many miles.. There is less than.001 missing from the king pin, you run your had across it you can feel NO wear, ZIP ZERO NANA and if you can see from the photos the Teflon coating on the brass bushing has just begun to show a small wear spot.

I have also heard the bunk about unloading the king pins, never did it and it looks like Jon found a link to confirm.

2512

2513

Disclaimer: To experience these results you need to grease every 1000 miles (for me that's every Friday after work, beer optional but preferable). There are some grease points on that truck that DO require unloading the weight. Like the shackle pins for the leaf springs on the steer axle. I have worn out 2 sets of hangers for them now and I believe judging by where they wore they do need to be unloaded. But as for the King-pins deffinatly not.

[tdelorme]

Yea, Joe, I think your right. I looked through every Prevost document I could find about lubrication of the front axle and nothing is ever mentioned about unloading before lubing the kingpins. I've never done it on anything I've owned over the years and never had anything close to a problem. Actually, I always see grease coming out the top and bottom so I figure that would get the job done.

[lewpopp]

Joe,

Why aren't your brass bushings highly polished?

And it's ZIP, ZERO, NADA, not nana.

[dalej]

Lew, it's ZIP, ZILTCH, NATA!

[tdelorme]

Lew, it's ZIP, ZILTCH, NATA!

Dale, la ortografía correcta de "nata" es nada.

AND

Jerry le gusta plástico en el frente de su autobús

[Orren Zook]

We don't usually jack the vehicle to lube either, unless they might be on one of the front end machines. The teflon bushing that Joe is using are the best option for extended service life on king pins. Reaming to a precise fit and proper lubrication are critical for this kind of performance in a real world environment.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

What makes Joe's experience with kingpins so outstanding is of his 1000 miles a week a lot of it is running around in the gravel pit, not exactly the best environment for long life.