8V92 vs. S60

[aggies09]

I am a new member to POG and a novice at best to the RV industry. My wife and I have decided to sell a vacation home and travel more and have decided to purchase a Prevost bus for the same reasons that most of you have. In my search for a bus that my wife and I can both agree on, I have developed an assumption that the 8V92 engine is inferior to the Series 60 and have been avoiding those coaches. Can some of the more knowledgeable and technical of the group give me your opinions to the validity of my assumption. Tony.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

The 8V is inferior compared to the 60series, no arguing that. In short newer is better, at least until IMO, that cost curve makes that hard turn straight UP. IMO it looks like the market is letting mid to late 90"s stuff with the 60series go for pretty reasonable prices compared to what it costs to get a new and I could not imagine what one would want that that vintage would not have.

Do you like to tinker? Are you mechanicly minded? Have you ever owned an RV?
If you had to answer no to all those questions you should still go ahead with your plans because now you have all of us;) good move:D

By the way hello and nice to meet you.

[Ray Davis]

Welcome to POG Tony, we're glad to have you here.


I think this topic will vary from person to person. You are right in the 8V92 is older than the Series 60. However, for a lot of people who are cost-conscious, the justification to getting a series 60 isn't always that simple.

The S60 engines came in around 95. By about 97 that's all you can get. So, if you're looking at coaches 97 or newer, it's not an issue.

However, if you're looking at the older coaches, then price-wise the older coach with the 8V92 engines are considerably cheaper. They do not get as good fuel mileage. That would be somewherer between 5.5-6.0 for the 8V and 7.5-8.0 for the S60.

To me, I love the sound of an 8V. It has a much throatier big engine sound. The S60 sounds more like it's "rattling".

The S60 will get up to speed more quickly than 8V, but my 8V was able to outrun some S60 coaches on the way of the Cajon Pass in CA on the way to a rally, so they will perform just fine.

All in all, I think it's personal choice. You can get some mighty fine deals on an older coach with an 8V engine. I've been told to stay away from the very early S60 engines (around 95) because breakage issues.

Ray

[aggies09]

Joe, as far as my technical capacity, I am capable of general maintenance. I would not be one to want to pull the head on the engine or any other component that would require a degree of expertise.

[Alek&Lucia]

Tony,

Welcome to the POG ! Ask questions, and you will get answers.
There is nothing wrong with 8V92 engines.
Did you found your dream bus already ?
Usually bus with 8V92 will be priced about $30k less than S60, because of
the older technology.

Alek

[aggies09]

To follow up to Joe's question. I have not owned an RV. This is uncharted territory for me and I am trying to come up to speed quick.

[aggies09]

Alek, I have not found a coach yet that appeared to meet our needs, but I have been very cautious due to my level of education on the matter. I am trying to immerse myself in the subject and learn what I can. I found the POG forum to be extremely interesting and informative.

[Ray Davis]

Personally, I tend to reduce this to a cost issue. It only comes into play if you're looking at coaches older than 96 or so. If you're in that market segment, then I certainly wouldn't write-off an 8V coach.

If you're looking at around the 95 year, I would hesitate on a S60. There was some recall, having to do with thrown rods or something in the early S60's that would make me think twice. Someone more familiar with that issue can chime in.

If you're looking at 97 or newer, then they only come in S60's, so there's no choice here either.

Personally, I started with an older 8V coach, and upgraded a couple of years later. The first two years were great learning experience, and I was able to sell my first coach for what I originally purchased (no I didn't recoup the money I'd put into maintenance and repairs). By then (1) I knew I was going to continue on with a bus, and (2) I had a much better idea of what I wanted, what converters etc.

Ray

[Joe Cannarozzi]

If you had enough to get a 60series bus I think I would go that way. I have an 8V mechanical and it still runs great but it is inferior to the 60series. The difference in the up front costs will certianly come back to you in fuel costs alone.

A side from what powerplant, IMO the 3 biggest selling factors are floorplan and interior design and paint sceme.

[Ray Davis]

The difference in the up front costs will certianly come back to you in fuel costs alone.

I don't necessarily believe that.

Take an average RV, driven 7500 miles per year.

S60 at 8mpg = 973.5 gallons per year
8V at 6mpg = 1250 gallons per year

That's a difference of 276.5 gallons per year.
At $4.00/ gallon, that's a fuel cost difference of $1106

To offset a $30,000 price difference, you're looking at almost 28 years to recoup!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Aggie as you probably already discovered we have AJ and his family who never owned a camper before and they seem to have made that leap directly from that to full timing pretty easily.

You wouldn't be alone or be the first.

Loyde and his wife are going full timing too, they just bought.

[dalej]

Tony,

If you guys can make it to one of the rallies coming up, It would be a good place to talk and learn all about bus's.

[Ray Davis]

Joe,

Tony signed his first post with his name.


Can some of the more knowledgeable and technical of the group give me your opinions to the validity of my assumption. Tony.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Ray quit confusing me.;)

In the world of diesel engines :

a V-8 is not the norm
a turbo feeding a blower is not the norm
a 2 stroke is not the norm
needing straight 40wt oil is not the norm
Having to add a gallon every thousand miles or so is not the norm

I doubt I ever got 6mpg average, 5 going easy.

Similarities:
It is made of hard alloy.
It rotates.
It burns diesel fuel.
It will get you where you want to go.:D

[jack14r]

The market has become very soft in the last few months,if you are buying and not trading this might be the best time for a great deal.The converters product varies quite a bit,the V8 or series 60 might not be the question after you do more research.A converter told me this week that 300K and up is very soft,good luck in your search and welcome.

[Ray Davis]

Joe,

Not sure what "the norm" has to do with it? And yes, maybe you don't get quite 6mpg, but I've never gotten 8 on my S60 either, generally I'm lucky to get 7.

But even plus or minus 1/2 to 1 gallon mpg on either side, the point it it will take YEARS to pay for the difference in cost with fuel savings.

SURE, I think it goes without saying IF you can afford a newer coach, then go for a newer coach with a S60 engine. You get the benefit of a newer coach, newer electronics, newer IFS (maybe), etc, etc.

My only point is, IF you aren't in the budget area for a newer S60 coach, that the 8V coaches are a very reasonable purchase, and will not drive you to the poorhouse any faster in fuel usage, with the break-even point been 20+ years down the road.

I really loved my 93 coach. It ran sweet!

Ray

[aggies09]

I have read some comments about rebuilt 8V82's due to overheating. Wouldn't that be a concern? And I intentionally signed my name so that you have a reference, just a courtesy. .............I do appreciate the input, and the overall discussion may lead me to a newer coach where I can bypass some of the issues.

[Will Garner]

Tony,

Welcome to POG. Get thee to the Sevierville TN Rally in April! Its real close to the maven of madness, Jon's home. Jon is a veritable treasure trove of bus systems knowledge and has a rapier wit about him too.

Don't rush into a purchase. We were told by the owner of Staley Coach in Nashville TN (our eldest daughter lives near his business) that when we see the right coach we will know it and there will be no hesitation. He was right. Carole and I spent almost two years traveling the eastern half of the good old US of A looking for a coach. Went as far south as Naples, FL. Went as far north as Lansing Mich. Went as far west as Memphis TN. Also looked at a couple of local coaches. We found a 1991 Country Coach conversion that met our needs from Marathon in Coburg Oregon. We did not go there, a local business owner sent an employee and drove it to NC in four days. That alone made me feel better about the mechanicals on the bus. The rest is history.

Price point was a big issue for us. We also wanted a "laid back" comfortable feel when inside the coach. We also did not want to mess with slides and some of their mechanical/hydraulic problems as well as leaks. I had some plans to do a little upscale transportation using the coach in the local golf tourism industry. Once Carole went on some trips, the first was to an FMCA rally in Georgia to learn more about RV systems, she decided that her "home" was not the place for lots of strangers.

If you have never driven a "big rig" RV or otherwise then the first thing you should do - very carefully - is drive one of the coaches you are looking at AFTER having someone explain where all the controls are and more importantly just what all of them do. I know speaking for myself there was a lot of anxiety during my first couple of experiences. Now about 8,000 miles later I feel just fine behind the wheel. Oh yeah, one of the hue and cries you will likely hear is, "Get left!" What that means is the person in the co-pilots seat thinks you are too far to the right side of the travel lane. One cure for this is to look farther down the road ahead and check to see if the little white line is visible in the side view mirror. If it is not visible, "Get left!" Carole is just now starting to go through the learning process. I told her before she took her first excursion onto the highway, after a couple of hours in an auditorium parking lot learning the controls, don't get mad at me when I have to tell you the same thing you and others shouted at me, "GET LEFT!" So don't forget that your wife (girlfriend, significant other, etc.) needs to be hands on in this experience too.

My coach has the 8V92. I have built gas engines before but this is my first diesel. I also would not try to work on the diesel. Too big and too many speciality tools, too little knowledge and not enough garage space. I intend to take it to a Detroit Diesel facility about 75 miles from our house for service and maintenance needs.

One of the other issues that we faced, and I think all bus owners faced, was just where the heck am I going to park/store this thing. Not too many of our houses come with a 24' by 60' garage with a 14' wide by 16' high doorway.

Oh yeah, one other biggie in your learning experiences, be really careful making right hand turns. If you are not you will find out just how expensive replacement stainless panel(s) can be on a Prevost! It is really hard to damage just one.

Welcome aboard and look forward to meeting you sometime soon. Carole and I are going to the Sevierville rally, our first live encounter with the characters that post on this forum. We can hardly wait!

Will

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Our bus has 220000 approximately. It has a DD factory re manufactured 8-V with 100000 on it. To my knowledge and from what I can see the radiator has never been out or re-cored. Ours runs very cool, gets to 175 in the flat. Even in the summer with the OTR/AC on it doesn't quite get to 180. Ours is a 435hp and I have read how increasing the HP with timing and or different injectors will cause that situation.

I think but am not sure that 435hp was standard for the 8-V92TA and anything over that was turned up??????????????????

[aggies09]

I would like to try to make the TN rally, but I have twin daughters that have prom that weekend. I had better stay close to home.

I drove a bus from Maine to Texas a few years back and learned the stay left part pretty quick. I realize that I am going to have to teach my wife the way around this machine as well. That may be sort of like building a house together.

I look forward to meeting you at an upcoming event, and continuing to learn more. Thanks for the input.

[Jerry Winchester]

AG09,

If you are close to Houston you can come see two coaches and both engines for yourself. I just sold my 8V-92 coach and it is stored across the airport from the one with the Series 60. I personally liked the 92, but I had a long history with them, so I wasn't spooked. I'm like Ray; the 60 rattles when it idles, starts easy enough and has a bunch of low end torque. And it gets better fuel mileage and makes a big whistling sound when you go thru the tunnel at Mobile Bay and stick your foot in it.

Jerry

[aggies09]

Jerry,

thanks for the offer. I am in Abilene, so about 7 hrs. drive time from you. I'll keep that in mind as we continue this process. thanks.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Back on the ground and reading this for the first time. One thing I kept looking for is a price range.

Buying a Prevost is a whole lot more than an 8V92 versus Series 60 issue as just about every owner here will acknowledge.

First, decide how much you are going to spend. If your budget is $150,000 max, you already made the decision to get an 8V92, because any coach with a series 60 at that price is suspect as to its condition unless the owner is dumping it.

If you are budgeting over $250,000 your coach is going to have a series 60 unless someone has a gold plated 8V92 that you just have to have. In between those two numbers you could find an exceptionally well maintained and equipped 8V92, or a less well maintained and equipped series 60. There are exceptions of course but it is the dollars that determines the engine.

I would not hesitate to get either engine, and at this stage, having had both except for the MPG I still like the 8V92 and the ease of access for maintenance or repairs. I am not looking forward to the day I have to disassemble the cabinetry in our coach just to get the valve cover off our engine (series 60) for work on the valves or injectors.

There are far bigger concerns than the engine. Ranking at the top of our list is over the road air and a private toilet. They are significantly more important to my wife and I than the engine type. We also will not go back to a 40 footer because the extra 5 feet have made a huge difference in livability. A 45 footer guarantees a series 60.

Take your time, ask lots of questions, go see as many coaches as your can, and before long you will know you have found the right coach. The hard part is looking past the colors and the little things to focus on the layout and systems that make the coach perfect for you.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon was I off the mark on the HP rating and its influence on operating temps for the 8-V?

[aggies09]

Jon,

Thanks for the input. I have tried to enter this with an open mind and have intenionally tried to not put hard and fast rules in place until I better understand the systems that are most important to liveabiltiy and reliability. Consequently, I haven't established a purchase price budget, other than to say that as a first coach, I would rather be on the lower end of the spectrum than the upper.

I do believe that there are living area issues that are going to be important to us, (private toilet......in such a small space you need some place to be alone for a minute) but I am trying to get up to speed on the mechanical systems so that I can make an informed decision.

Can you give me a crash course on OTR air and why you find that critical?

[Orren Zook]

Joe,

I'm running bigger injectors and 'custom' tune from the DD shop (dyno 480hp) on my V8 and my normal operating termperature is always at 175, unless on a sustained hard pull (like Fancy Gap) when it might run up to 185. I usually tow a Jeep Grand Cherokee and sometimes I tow a 27' enclosed trailer as long as I use some common sense, I don't see a change in temperatures. I seldom run over 65mph - I set the cruise at 1800 and just tool along enjoying the scenery.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

AG09,

There are some polarizing topics about Prevost ownership, and one of the more contentious ones is over the road AC (OTR) versus a converter's version of OTR or the use of roof AC units versus Cruise Airs.

I will state my opinion and reasons. I am correct, and those with differing opinions are wrong. That is all you have to know.:rolleyes:

The advantage of OTR is it is a whole bus AC and heating system. It is engine driven and has somewhere in the range of 80,000 BTU of cooling power. No matter the outside temperature you will be able to remain cool and comfortable, and if for some reason your coach is heat soaked, there is little that will match its ability to make your coach comfortable in a hurry.

To put this in perspective, the average roof or Cruise Air has 13,000 BTU, and all 40 foot coaches and almost all 45 footers that I have seen have three units. Some 45's may have four units making the total cooling power (not including the driver's AC or the converter's AC) of approximately half that is available with OTR. The OTR system was designed to cool 45 passengers in the desert southwest. The average passenger is a heater equal to about 500 watts so the system is very capable.

OTR is as simple as it gets. If the engine is running, turn it on and set the temperature. You do not have to worry about starting the generator, or using the inverters to run an AC or two rather than charging the batteries, or how to keep the bedroom cool while you are running the front ACs so you can be cool when you are driving into the sun with that huge solar panel called a windshield.

Here is the stated downside to OTR. It uses about the equivalent of 1/2 bay. It is always located in the 3rd bay back on an XL, and the condenser side and the evaporator side occupy about 20 to 24" in depth. The remaining space is your fuel tanks so while you gain some bay space it is not a lot. Another argument is that the compressor takes a lot of HP.

For those that are mathematically challenged the energy to cool the coach is the same whether you use your inverters to power the AC units, your generator to power the AC, or your engine to drive the OTR compressor. No matter what AC system you end up with your alternator or your generator or your engine will be driving it, and they all use energy.

It is my opinion that we spend a lot of money to buy a high class coach. It is foolhardy to accept less than the best in terms of comfort and convenience. I want to stay cool and comfortable in the worst heat of summer and I do not want to have to compromise. Nothing else out there equals the capability of the Prevost OTR system. But going further, if I was forced to have a coach without OTR I would not accept a coach that required Cruise Airs to provide cooling while driving. The condensing units need a good flow of cool air, and the heated air radiating from a highway in the summer is often so hot the performance of the Cruise Airs is compromised.

So I would thus opt for a roof air equipped coach. While three roof airs may be adequate for a 40 foot coach, I would insist on no less than 4 for a 45 foot coach. A roof air unit is going to get clean, unheated ambient air while going down the road so it will operate efficiently, but they may be a little noisier. The real advantage to the roof air units is they are cheap. When one quits, throw it away and get another at Camping World.

Cruise Airs are pricier but if used solely to cool the coach when parked they are fairly quiet and they are robust. That is what we have now, and the combination of OTR and Cruise Airs to run from generator or shore power works well for us.

There are numerous side issues relating to this decision, and different owners have different needs, so listen to the opposing opinions which are sure to follow this post. Also recognize that some people have different tolerance levels for heat and cold. I like cold. I want a 72 degree coach driving across the desert with outside temps hovering around 105. Others are putting on sweaters when the inside temp falls below 85. You have to put things in the context of how you intend to use the coach, and what you decide is acceptable cooling.

Bear in mind one thing.....one way to sort out what owners value is to see how many that have OTR would give it up, versus how many that do not have OTR that would want it.

Count me as one that has OTR who will not give it up.