To Interest to Pilots

[dreamchasers]

Since their are numerous pilots in the POG membership, I thought this would be of interest to those.

My business partner, and life long friend, and I were on a business trip Wednesday in his private airplane, Cessna 182 RG. We flew from Livingston, Texas, IFR, to Kerrville, Texas (1/ 1/2 hour flight) early in the morning and had a great smooth flight.

However, on our return trip that afternoon, things were different. We took off from Kerrville, wheels up at 4:00 pm. About 10 minutes into the flight, I noticed the alternator gauge was showing a discharge current. We both talked of it and as we were discussing our options, we noticed the fuel gauge for the left wing tank was dropping fast. The fuel indication was dropping so fast, we had to have a ruptured fuel tank. Then the left gauge started dropping fast. We looked around the plane and could not see fuel leaking from the wings. To make things more interesting, both of us started hearing what sounded like 'metal buffeting' in the wind (Coming through our headsets, as the electrical power was dropping.). As we were redirected to the nearest airport, 7.4 miles and we were at 6000 feet, things were very tense in the cockpit. A few seconds after we turned for the nearest airport, we lost all electrical power. With no radios or navigation equipment, we followed the last bearing gave to us for traffic control. As we entered the pattern, David, the pilot, attempted to apply flaps (Electrically operated), with no response. OK, we could land easily with no flaps. Then he attempted to lower the landing gear! No response from the electrically operated hydraulic landing gear system. Then things became very tense! As David flew the aircraft, I was able to pump the manual landing gear pump handle, very fast I might add, until we could see the main landing gear on each side of the plane. We were uncertain of the nose gear, but felt we needed to land immediately to resolve the problem. We touched down and thank goodness, the nose gear was in position.

After a mechanic looked over the aircraft, he could not find any problems. We spent the night to give the mechanic plenty of time to look thing over. Still no problems. After several takeoff and landing, cycling of the landing gear, we headed for Livingston.

Our brainstorming lead us to the following conclusion:

David uses a checklist each and everytime he starts the aircraft. One of the checklist items is turn off the master switch (With the engine running at 1500 RPM), then turn the master back on while observing the alternator indicator for correct movements. We think during the run up check of this function, when he flipped the master switch back to the on position, the switch did not lock into the on position(Partially on). Then during takeoff and flight, the vibration must have allowed the switch to release. During our emergency situation, we did not notice the switch position, we were focused on flying the plane and landing safely.

At a minimum, he intends to replace the master switch and install a new battery.

I thought this would be of interest of POG pilots. The good news is that we did not panic and were able to land safely. I am an ex pilot, not current, so I knew panic was not part of the solution.


With this public forum, I will not express in my words how 'tense' I was during all this. But use your imagination.

Sorry for the long post, but good info for pilots among us.

Hector

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Wow. Anything short of a DIFINITAVE answer to that malfunction would be VERY undesirable.

[tdelorme]

Hector, consider yourself grounded. At least until you get home from Sevierville:)

[rmboies]

I thought this would be of interest of POG pilots. The good news is that we did not panic and were able to land safely. I am an ex pilot, not current, so I knew panic was not part of the solution.
Hector

Wow Hector, I am certainly glad you are both alright. I am guessing here but I have a pretty strong feeling that Jon will jump in here with his observations. I believe he had a similar situation and I also believe my husband and a doberman were involved as well, right Jon? Thankfully, everything turned out ok.....

Debi

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Unfortunately returning from a maintenance nightmare in Tallahassee where I had gone with Bob-05 to pick up a Dobie, I was flying out of TLH in the clouds due to a tropical depression and first my vacuum pump failed and then my alternator. Within minutes of one another.

Neither failure was new to me, but this was my first multiple system failure. I have a standby generator and some decent redundancy so life was good, plus at 15,000 I was on top.

I flew it all the way back to Knoxville like that rather than endure another day of getting raped by the repair shop in TLH. As an aside I disputed the charges for the repairs on my credit card and I was credited by the card company over $3000 so the shop in TLH did not get a penny. Justice.

[flyu2there]

Guys,

After spending 30+ thousand hours in the air I can only proffer this advice:

1. Single Engine Airplanes are for Day VFR only with the possible exception of some of the newer "known ice" turbo-props. TBM and the like.

2. IFR and Nightime Ops require a minimum of 2 engines with redundant systems and ice protection.

3. Keep yourself very current, especially if you intend to fly IFR; take a refresher course somewhere annually, at very least, and know your own limits.

4. Gas is brains, always have more than you will need and finally, stay well clear of thunderstorms...always.

Standing down from the soap box....

John

Piper Seneca ll/G, known ice and radar.

[flyu2there]

Our brainstorming lead us to the following conclusion:

David uses a checklist each and everytime he starts the aircraft. One of the checklist items is turn off the master switch (With the engine running at 1500 RPM), then turn the master back on while observing the alternator indicator for correct movements. We think during the run up check of this function, when he flipped the master switch back to the on position, the switch did not lock into the on position(Partially on). Then during takeoff and flight, the vibration must have allowed the switch to release. During our emergency situation, we did not notice the switch position, we were focused on flying the plane and landing safely.

At a minimum, he intends to replace the master switch and install a new battery.

Hector[/QUOTE]


Is the procedure for turning the Master Switch Off then On a published procedure in the Airplane Flight Manual or Pilots Operating Handbook?

I do not know that airplane, however my candid opinion is that it is not an approved procedure but rather a technique that someone has devised to check alternator output. With all of the radios and equipment turned on it is akin to going out to your electrical box next to your bus, with the microwave on inside, both tv's, maybe the heater and stove and pulling the power and putting it back in.

Check the manuals.......

John

[Jon Wehrenberg]

John,

We will have to agree to disagree about singles in IFR.

I flew out of JHW for 25 years, to a schedule established months in advance (so I couldn't pick the day to fly) with a KI and radar equipped P210. Despite being in the lee of Lake Erie I used the boots thrice for real with the philosophy of don't get into ice, if you are dumb enough to get into it, get out, and if you ignore the first two rules because you were really stupid, use the equipment. My greatest ice protection was my altitude flexibility.

The key to safely aviating in my opinion is to develop a considerable knowledge and understanding of weather, and to practice, practice and practice.

I doubt if you will agree with me being very comfortable in a single because you are used to flying the heavy iron, but I would rather be in a good solid single and very proficient on the gauges, than in a multi that my single pilot flying would never let me get as proficient in the engine out stuff. The numbers support my concern. Multi's are for two crew flying so you can always practice the emergancy stuff when no passengers are on board.

I could always practice the approaches to minimums because JHW has some of the crappiest weather on the planet.

[flyu2there]

:D

Jon,

I knew as I typed that message that I may ruffle some feathers, for that I apologize. I have known way too many good people get themselves whacked in an airplane because the stumble into something a bit beyond their means.

I still stand on my premise that single engine airplanes are day VFR machines but I will add, for the average Joe. It sounds like you are serious and proficient, big difference from the 200 hour private pilot in a Bonanza with a Garmin 430.

Other than in training, in 33 years with the airline, I lost exactly three engines, two were precautionary shut downs and only 1 was a catastrophic failure....747 on take off out of Los Angeles and the #1 engine shelled itself at about 100' after take off.

I encounter the arguement that twin engine aircraft require either two pilots or a bunch more training to stay proficient.......I guess that depends on what side of the arguement one looks at. Truth is neither twins or single engine a/c have engine failures very often. Does having a two engine airplane increase the chances of having an engine failure...absolutely not. No airplane would be very popular if it was known as an engine eater and other than the PT-19, I cannot think of one.

Now for what I see as very important..........the 182 Master Switch question. Turns out the guy in the hangar next to me has a 182 RG, I asked him, he never heard of it. We looked in the POH....nothing there about that, at all. Dunno where it came from but, the Master Switch On/Off at 1500 or any RPM is not an approved procedure, not from the manufacturer or the FAA. He may want to add a new voltage regulator to the list, a cat only has 9 lives.....

Keep the rusty side down...

John

[dreamchasers]

I would attempt an explanation, but I just say OK, for now (It has something to do with a split switch, one side of the split if for the alternator). Remember, I am not a current pilot (I flew actively 25 years ago.), so I am sure I am not representing the issue correctly. Sorry for the confusion, I was attempting to bring awareness to those how are pilots. I guess I had better to stick to land based vehicles.

Lesson learned? I had better Stick to the FACTS!

Hector

[MangoMike]

Hector,

As you hang around the POG board you'll find that everything, (especially technical items) is scrutinized to the 10th power. Just roll with the punches as some of us have way too much time on our hands. Also to protect yourself from future comments use lots of terms like thing-a-machig, whatchacallit, and flux capacitor. Always my approach.

Keep posting.

Mike

[flyu2there]

Hector,

No worries on this one. I can appreciate what you, especially as a passenger and former pilot, went thru.. Been there, done that, even got the T Shirt and Hat!!

IMHOP, if the alternator shows a Charge at 1500 RPM, you are good to go. My airplane has switches to turn them on/off as well....I never touch them, unless there is an issue. Airplane batteries are puny little overpriced things, sounds to me like the battery took the load until it ran out of gas...you filled in the rest of the details.

All the best


John

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I would attempt an explanation, but I just say OK, for now (It has something to do with a split switch, one side of the split if for the alternator). Remember, I am not a current pilot (I flew actively 25 years ago.), so I am sure I am not representing the issue correctly. Sorry for the confusion, I was attempting to bring awareness to those how are pilots. I guess I had better to stick to land based vehicles.

Lesson learned? I had better Stick to the FACTS!

Hector


No problem over here Hector. I enjoyed the tale and took it at face value.

No matter what went wrong this one had a good ending!

[Jerry Winchester]

I let Mango Mike shoot an instrument approach in my Bonanza using the Garmin 430 with the single yoke flipped over to the right seat. And he doesn't even have a pilot's license.

How hard can it be?

[flyu2there]

Jerry,

That's the problem........

John

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jerry,

I hope you are baiting.....So far that takes the cake for dumb pilot stunts.

John,

I respect your opinion on singles. Having said that however, I too have had one catastrophic engine failure (as in parts breaking and leaving big holes through which oil drains) and two lost cylinders on two other occasions, one of which was after a missed approach at JHW in the climbout, and the other which necessitated an ILS to minimums at LBE. As a result in recurrent training I get real serious in the sim about engine out, dead stick approaches. All I can say is I do the best I can and take it real serious.

Hector,

The split switch is the master, and one side is the battery, and the other side is the alternator. The battery side is used by some pilots to start the engine, and with it running they switch on the other side to bring the alternator on line. Others flip them both on and start the engine. The Pilots Operating handbook for the 182Q model does not call for starting on the battery side only, but merely says to turn on the master.

After engine start it also does not specify anywhere in the procedures to cyce the alternator side of the switch. I think that is just a practice your friend uses that is not in the handbook.

[truk4u]

OK boys...

There I was, 3000', turbulent, raining, night, TRW's in all quadrants, being vectored for the ILS to PDK. Weather was 300 and a half, wind 220 at 17, peak gusts 23, heavy rain. The ole Aztek was purring like a kitten. Crossed the outer marker, stuck in 10 flaps and dropped the gear. Rougher than a cobb and had to turn up the panel lights because of the lightning. MM went by all is good, went to quarter flaps and stayed there because of the turbulence and wind. Still in the goo, DH only another 300', then it happened!
Port engine quit, gyro tumbled (the starboard vacuum pump quit enroute) and a bad case of vertigo set in....:eek: Scroll down for the conclusion>



















Then I fell of the chair and spilt my beer, the simulator crashed!:D

[Jerry Winchester]

I hope you are baiting.....So far that takes the cake for dumb pilot stunts.

Yep.

28 years of flying single engine IFR in my Bonanza. One alternator failure. One vac pump failure.

But I did have to pee real bad after a couple of those approaches.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[MangoMike]

JDUB did stretch it a bit.


... I was actually using the 496


Mike

[flyu2there]

Jon,

You are spot on in your reply to Hector. Anytime one does something that is not in the AFM or POH he becomes a Test Pilot and without a Martin-Baker Ejection Seat or equivelent, I would say that is the worst job on the planet....not good for blood pressure, bowel habits or longevity, in ascending order!

Regarding singles, twins or whatever, the most important thing here is performance. You need an airplane that will do what you need it to do while keeping you in your personal comfort zone.....that's why the 182 is so popular. Easy to fly, adequate power and fairly roomy. Those of us on the Left Coast, where we have mountains, not hills, might want to add turbo-charger (s) and the like if we ever intend to play in the mountains. With multi-engine airplanes it is an imperative to look at single engine performance and ceilings.......the old Apache as I recall, had a single engine service ceiling of about 3500', no bueno if you are over the rock pile (rockies) at 13000' and shed an engine. I guess its really about trade off's and compromise.

In any event, those out there with airplanes, enjoy them....there as much fun, maybe more fun than the busses. Remember know your airplane, know your airplanes limitations and most importantly know your own limitations....and thank gawd you don't own a fling wing (that outta start something)

Standing down from Soap Box in Hyde Park...

John

[Darl-Wilson]

Hey Granvil, there goes John picking on your chopper!!:mad:

Sh*t Stirrer Darl:D

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Darl,

That's one guy and machine I won't pick on. You have to see his helicopter and just how fine a machine that is. And the guy doesn't do too shabby flying it either. It was a real treat for us in FL.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

I personally looked at the numbers when I purchased my1979 T182RG. It was in 84 or 5 and the numbers said this aircraft type had the lowest fatality record in its class.

41 Stearman
53 195
71 180

Ed

[JIM KELLER]

OK boys...

There I was, 3000', turbulent, raining, night, TRW's in all quadrants, being vectored for the ILS to PDK. Weather was 300 and a half, wind 220 at 17, peak gusts 23, heavy rain. The ole Aztek was purring like a kitten. Crossed the outer marker, stuck in 10 flaps and dropped the gear. Rougher than a cobb and had to turn up the panel lights because of the lightning. MM went by all is good, went to quarter flaps and stayed there because of the turbulence and wind. Still in the goo, DH only another 300', then it happened!
Port engine quit, gyro tumbled (the starboard vacuum pump quit enroute) and a bad case of vertigo set in....:eek: Scroll down for the conclusion>



















Then I fell of the chair and spilt my beer, the simulator crashed!:D

Tom, I know this didn't get any attention but I was howling when I read it. I think all these guys were in a highly technical debate and lost sight of the "lighter side."

[Denny]

Jim ,

This did get my attention. I was sitting at my desk reading this, when I leaned back in my chair and closed my eyes. I had a vision of Tom telling the story and then falling off of a bar stool as he crashed and burned. I laughed so loud that Ruth Ann came in wondering what was wrong with me.

POG - the best comedy club going. It plays everyday and only for a $100.

[rfoster]

Denny and Ruth Ann:

I know this is thread creep, but, We sure did miss seeing you guys at the Lew Fest in PSL. Did you get snowed in?
Are you going to make the Tn Rally?
Looking forward to seeing you again soon we hope.

[Denny]

Roger,

Hopefully the thread creep cops are sleeping on this. We planned on going to FL but our secretary had jury duty and we could not leave. We are planning on being at TN. Thanks for the concern and look forward to seeing you and Micki in the Smokies.