Yikes!!

[doodlebug45]

Last Tuesday I had my first chance to have a good look at and test drive the 93 Marathon I talked about in previous posts. Unmitigated disaster may be too strong a term but I certainly have concerns. My first "oops" factor came when I noticed the DDEC had recently been replaced. That means no history is available. The dealer said he had a new one installed at great expense but didn't explain why. The unit is clearly marked as a "reman". There were lots of other little things but the big problem came on the test drive. Weather here was crummy (Canada in the winter: go figure!) and we were late getting to the dealer who is a few hundred miles away. On arrival, the coach was sitting out front at high idle where it had been for more than an hour. The dealer pointed out that no PDI or other work had yet been done but the coach was good to go for a test drive. The temperature was hovering at around 20F and a snow warning was in effect. We got out of town for some highway test driving and drove for about 20 minutes at around 60 to 65 mph. We made the turn to come back to town and 2 minutes later, the engine died. Long, long story about several hours of me and the service guys trying to restart the coach ended in the unit being hauled back on a trailer. The dealer says it was due to gelled summer diesel but I had the powerplant running fine. I also bled the lines and got fuel to flow although at poor volume. I made the comment that it looked like the Racor and on-engine fuel filters had never been changed and got no argument. Also, the dealer seems to have a "thing" about me taking the coach to the main Detroit/Allison dealer for a checkup. He has agreed to have the full PDI done by a Prevost approved shop so I have not yet thrown in the towel. Although the "Marathon" part of the coach seems to be in good shape, I am concerned about the excessive wear on the leather of the driver and passenger seats. Maybe it has more than the 150T miles reported. I suspect the "Prevost" part of the coach had poor maintenance. Prevost has told me that they can't divulge any history on the coach without the approval of prior owners except for outstanding recall notices of which there are two. (flexible hoses on front & rear brakes). The dealer swears these recalls were done by some outfit in another city but not logged by Prevost for some unknown reason. BTW, I didn't touch any air controls but an hour after the engine quit, the coach had "bottomed out". Is this normal? I have an uneasy feeling guys but would appreciate your input and comments.

D'Bug

[Just Plain Jeff]

This is an absolute horror story in the making. Keep driving, period.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Doodlebug, when the bus died was it in gear? If it did that may be why it would not re fire.

If you are mechanicly minded and are concidering buying something at a low price to do the repairs yourself everything you have described is nothing that can not be overcome.

I do not think there is anyone in the club that bought more of a basket case than we did and everything came back on line wonderfully. I could write MANY chapters of all the components that were neglected on ours, but, we got it for way under wholesale and I believe even with the cost of parts it is now worth more than we have in it. Even concidering these things, our bus is again solid and reliabal. So: are you a good wrench and how low will the seller go?

On the other hand I think I've seen Marathon replace things like air bags for used coaches in the past. In fact I was AMAZED at the way they literally bend over backwards to make new owners of relatively older used coaches happy, repairing a whole litany of things. Talk to Wrongway and AJ they both bought older Marathons. If relying on this option then where is the closest Marathon barn to you?

Did you REALLY like the look and style, on the inside and out, are you mechanicly minded and how much will the purchase price be. Those would be the questions for the scenario you have described. If you cannot correctly answer these questions then I would have to agree with Jeff.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

D'bug,

I would not be worried about a new DDEC or the loss of history. If the engine has problems the new DDEC will report them, If it stays clean there are no codes. DDEC will not tell you the oil has not been changed, or the engine is about to throw a rod. It generally tells you of conditions that affect how it runs or things that could make it stop running like low oil pressure or high temps.

As to the engine quitting, if it is getting fuel in any quantity short of almost complete stoppage it will run, but not produce power. If it stops completely you will not get any fuel flowing.

The stoppage could be as simple as the DDEC having a tripped Circuit breaker, or the fuel solenoid closed or plugged filters.

What concerns me is the attitude about having Detroit and Allison check it.

I am not afraid of mechanical stuff, like Joe, but I will walk away from salespeople that I consider less than honest. I'd take a hike.

[doodlebug45]

You might be right Jeff but there is also a chance I might be over reacting. We plan to think on it over the long weekend.

It was in gear Joe but the first thing I did when I stopped was punch the neutral button. The service guys that came out didn't bring fuel conditioner but they did bring 15 gal of winter diesel added to about 40 gal that was in the tank. They also brought starter fluid (ether) and we could get the engine to fire when we sprayed that in but it stopped immediately when the fumes were gone. Bottom line is no fuel to the engine. Possible reasons as I see it are filters, fuel pump or control unit assuming gelling wasn't the issue which I doubt. My money is on the filters. I never met a wrench I didn't like and right now, between 2 boats, 2 tractors and 1 truck I have 9 diesel engines that I maintain and they all work just fine. I see the point that you are making about value for money and I can't honestly tell you how I feel about that right now. I have seen another coach (liberty I think) out of Arizona that is about the same price but it has tons of new stuff on it. I have some tough decisions to make so that is why I'm asking for input. You put a good perspective on things.

[doodlebug45]

Way to go Jon! I just got off the phone with the dealer and he says his shop guy discovered a tripped breaker and everything worked fine when he reset it. I can only assume that it is the one on the back of the DDEC that you mentioned. This was after they changed all the filters and the fuel pump and bled all the lines. The dealer also got around to telling me that he had the engine overhauled 5T miles ago because of a scored cylinder. Apparently the DDEC went out shortly after the rebuild. Getting information on this coach is like pulling teeth but progress is happening. BTW, the engine WILL be seen by the Detroit/Allison guys or the deal is off! The rebuild was done by somebody else which may be the issue here.

[truk4u]

D'bug,

Rely on your gut instinct and run the other way!;)

[Ray Davis]

I'm curious. Is this bus such a good deal, that is why you're still considering it? You've indicated enough reasons to have at least some serious concern about the maintenance on this coach. Unless you're getting one heck of a bargin, I'd continue searching.

As you can guess, you can easily dump $10,000-$30,000 (or more) in fixing an older coach, if things ain't right. Be careful.


Ray

[rfoster]

D'bug: First of all Good Luck (luck is a direct result of the amount of work you put into something)

Having said that I see more red flags around this bus than at the Track in Daytona this week.

I dont think the 200 mph duct tape is going to help.:cool:

[win42]

D'bug: I just put my coach up for sale at http://www.californiacoachcompany.com/contact.asp
It is a good strong low mileage coach. Please check it out. I would not hesitate to drive it anywhere. It has been to POG 2,3 & 4 with no problems. We just found a newer one and made the change.
I will be happy to retire from the two bus club.

[garyde]

Hi D'bug. When you have Prevost mania its hard to throttle down, but remember there are a lot of Coaches on the market right now and it's a buyers market. Take your time.

[Toy Box]

Dump the marathon temporary, and go see the Liberty. Fast Roger, are you here at DAB ? call me. 954-646-4490

[BrianE]

Hugh,

Listen to Gary and Jon. As usual, their advice is spot on. There are enough red flags on the local coach to send you elsewhere. Additionally, between the Arizona coach, Harry's very nice Royale, and maybe others, it sounds like you have other good options. Besides, a trip to the sunshine is always good. IT IS a buyers market. Go slow and try to get it right the first time.

[doodlebug45]

WOW! Thanks guys! That was a flood of great information and good opinions. The jury has spoken! I'm pretty sure that this will be a good coach some day but it needs some serious TLC. Joe's comments were right on but the price isn't good enough for me to take on the project. Thanks to you TBC members for contacting me with your info. There are some great units here and you're forcing me to do some heavy duty thinking. Hey, Mango! Are you still in the club? Somebody told me that you have a half decent coach if you don't mind the smell of Jerk chicken. My email address is hughst@shaw.ca . The saga continues! Thank God for the MPD support group.

Hugh (D'Bug)

[Just Plain Jeff]

Hugh: You done good. Thanks for posting your first bout with MPD. There are a lot more options out there than any of us realize at any given time. It likely that you have been now bombarded with a lot of guys who want to sell you their camper. They are very nice people who are as good as their word. I'm not going to write any more here because it is going to make everyone sick. Good choice.

[doodlebug45]

Thought I would fill you in on the last few pages of the 93 Marathon saga. I got a call from the dealer on Friday to tell me that they were all over the coach like a swarm of bees. I tried to gently tell him that we were losing interest but he talked right over me. I inquired as to why the DDEC had to be replaced at 145T miles and his answer was that he wasn't really sure but it happened just shortly after the engine was rebuilt. WHAT! That's the first I heard about an engine rebuild! WHY? Well, one of the cylinders was scored. He then went on to tell me that it cost him $50K to rebuild the engine but no, they never looked at the Allison. The last time I scored a cylinder was about 40 years ago in my 56 Chevy dirt track race car when I busted a ring while over revving. I'm sure there must be several possible reasons this could happen in an 8V92 but none of them can be good. I had to sign off that conversation because I was lost for words.

Today I got hold of the dealer (finally) and told him the deal was off because there were just too many weird things going on with that coach. He immediately went into nuclear sales mode trying to convince me that everything was going to be great. As a matter of fact, he had great news that they had finally figured out why the coach had stopped on the test drive. It seems the instant the engine quit was the instant I pushed the button to lock the bay doors. HUH?? Am I missing something here? Hitting the button to lock your bay doors while in motion will blow the breaker on your DDEC? Tell me it isn't so guys. I responded with a #%$@*&^! Mr. dealer, is that supposed to make me feel better about the reliability of this coach? His reply was that they really had no idea how or why that had happened but they were working on it. He kind of got mad when I asked if I turned on the heater if I might blow the engine. We went on for several rounds before he finally gave up. Along the way I mentioned that the final straw was his resistance to my taking the coach to the Detroit/Allison dealer for a checkup. I recall that this was something that really bugged Jon too. Another irritant I mentioned was the amount of wear on both the driver's and passenger's leather seats. I used to have a classic Mercedes with 300+K miles on it that had less worn upholstery. In retrospect, the whole conversation was kind of funny and I have to give the guy full marks for tenacity. As I said before, this coach has the potential to be excellent one of these days but I'm not going to be the one to d'bug it (pun intended). Any footnotes you may have to this saga would be welcome except for the "freaking idiot" comments!

Thanks to all of you who helped me through this phase of MPD. I will be much more careful now and try not to entertain you quite so much. That doesn't mean I'll stop asking stupid questions though. I'm sure I have a lot more trouble to get into.

Hugh (D'Bug)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

That guy doesn't know when to quit lying. $50K would buy the engine, transmission, all the tires, batteries and fuel for a year.

I may be a little screwed up in this respect, but if a seller lies to me, I have to head on down the road because there is too much at stake when buying one of these coaches. In the best of circumstances there is a huge learning curve for the first time buyer. It makes the situation considerably more complex if a seller is trying to cover something up.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Somebody's smokin' somebody on this deal. The last engine replacement I've seen while sneaking around the usual joints is about $13-15K with a one-year warranty. In most cases DD will rebuild the original engine. The 8V92 has cast iron sleeves which aren't that difficult for those who know how to do so, to replace. There are tons of guys in various businesses who will do the job for $xxx a 'hole,' meaning per cylinder. We'll get you a good camper, just hang in there. Oh, and thanks again for bringing your first Encounter of the Worst Kind to the board. This may likely help others who have been lurking in the shadows to start pushing the posting buttons.

[rbeecher]

Hugh,

I just sent you a private message before reading this latest post from you.

I can't believe anyone else hasn't said it yet but in reality, I think we all want you to keep looking for awhile not just because we want to be sure you end up with the right bus, which we do, but because we are enjoying your posts on bus hunting adventures tremendously. You have a very entertaining way of conveying your experiences and we might like you to extend the process for awhile.

Regarding engine rebuilds, when we had our transmission rebuilt at the Miami DD facility, it was a no brainer to check the engine at the same time, which we were happy to learn was in perfect health. On the other hand, had we had our bus checked by DD before buying it, someone else would have paid for the new tranny or we would have passed. We didn't know about this forum at the time. Btw, the DD tranny rebuild was $12,000 and a complete engine would have been $28,000. They have varying degrees of rebuilds.

I agree 100% with Jon and Joe so keep asking questions, we haven't seen a stupid one yet and we won't unless it is one from me. You are doing a great job of staying out of trouble so far. But please don't keep us waiting for the next episode, we are looking forward to it.

Richard Beecher
2002 Marathon XLII 45
1996 Vogue XL 40 for sale

[Judi Brown]

After reading about your experience D bug. I think we got lucky when we purchased our coach. We did not know about this board and would have been ripe for the picking. As it turned out all receits for repairs where with the bus and he had everything repaired first class. There is a receit for $23,000
for a new transmissom from DD. We thought these transmissions were bullit
proof and wondering why needed new one at 100,000 m. My husband watchs
trans. temp. close when using retarder. Another thing we read here where
people are getting motor over hauls at 150,000 miles and we were told these motors are good 250,000. Starting to worry because are at 125,000 now.
Judi B.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Judi,

I think you can rest easy. At least don't look at this pessimistically.

Over the years I have learned that a lot of the causes for rebuilds are often due to owner error. Our engines and transmissions are built for many years and miles of service, but they are not bullet proof. They require proper care and maintenance and that maintenance is spelled out clearly to anyone that wants to look for it on the Prevost, Detroit or Allison sites.

I have had a lot of owners admit they have never changed their coolant. They think the chemistry is all that needs to be checked, yet I never have seen anywhere listed that you do not have to change coolant every two years. The fastest way to ruin an engine is overheating, and poor coolant maintenance will plug a radiator, or allow the engine to literally beat its cylinders to death from the back side due to improper chemistry.

Ditto with oil changes. Compared to an engine oil is cheap, and the way most of us use our coaches, infrequently, they are in my opinion subject to severe duty.

I am not saying Detroit Diesel and Allison have no responsibility in premature failures. I know that the early Series 60 engines installed in our coaches had a problem with piston failure, and the result was a catastophic engine failure. In my vintage coach the Allison transmission suffered from a poor choice of clutch materials causing early failure of the transmission clutches.

The best thing we can do for our coaches and ourselves is to use the coach frequently, perform the specified maintenance and do as your husband does and monitor the operating pressures and temperatures and keep them in the normal range.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Judy I too wondered why so many engines are rebuilt so soon.

Ditto all the previous suggestions. Especially the coolant issue and in addition IMO, for the 8-V, oil coming from the down tubes leads people to the rebuild prematurely and frequently.

On ours, when cold, and warming up, even on high idle, it drips pretty significantly, both sides but the left even more so. I believe this scares many folks.

However once warm and the containers drained nothing more than a trace develops from that point on. Additionally even cold starts after it is run good the prior day show drastically reduced loss.

I could only imagine how much worse if not on high idle and I think that mistake is also pretty frequent.

Also, for both engines, leaks in general and often there are many.

I believe that most folks who own Prevost are of the opinion that they want it to be right, want to have that confidence, usually are not too mechanicly inclined and have the doe so they rebuild them when many could probably be repaired and continue on for a long long time.

Lets not leave out the guy with the big bus with all the money syndrome that occurs frequently when turning into service centers.