Drivers License Wake Up Call

[0533]

I recently purchased my Marathon coach. It is at the factory, almost ready to go, if I would stop adding stuff to the list, mostly as a result of reading these different threads, now i need new headlights Zenon I guess? Well anyway, as a new Prevost owner I now am getting FMCA magazine again. I received my first copy this week, the Jan. issue. While kicking back and reading the issue, on page 78 I noticed an article on "MotorHome Regulations". I scrolled down to Florida and looked at the Class of License required to operate a motorhome, and noticed that my license, class E allows me to operate motorhomes up 26001 LBS. I guess that means I will only be able to operate the first half of the coach, maybe up to the galley. Nobody ever mentioned the need for a different Class of license to operate this vehicle, not the salesman, the insurance company, this is a first. My last coach, been a while, 2002 was over the 26001 lbs limit as well, and I whistled around in this one with ignorant bliss, wish I had missed this article. Question: What Fl. license do I need, can't seem to get a clear answer on the Fl. DMV sight.

Thanks,

Bruce:confused:

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I recently purchased my Marathon coach. It is at the factory, almost ready to go, if I would stop adding stuff to the list, mostly as a result of reading these different threads, now i need new headlights Zenon I guess? Well anyway, as a new Prevost owner I now am getting FMCA magazine again. I received my first copy this week, the Jan. issue. While kicking back and reading the issue, on page 78 I noticed an article on "MotorHome Regulations". I scrolled down to Florida and looked at the Class of License required to operate a motorhome, and noticed that my license, class E allows me to operate motorhomes up 26001 LBS. I guess that means I will only be able to operate the first half of the coach, maybe up to the galley. Nobody ever mentioned the need for a different Class of license to operate this vehicle, not the salesman, the insurance company, this is a first. My last coach, been a while, 2002 was over the 26001 lbs limit as well, and I whistled around in this one with ignorant bliss, wish I had missed this article. Question: What Fl. license do I need, can't seem to get a clear answer on the Fl. DMV sight.

Thanks,

Bruce:confused:

Bruce, I can't comment directly on what you read, but I was under the opinion that RVs when not commercial are not under the CDL rules in FL..
The law may have changed, but when looking up Florida Bureau of Motor Vehicles "BMV" web site one still finds that to be true. Have a look see and you decide.
http://www.dmv.org/fl-florida/cdl-faqs.php
Look at the FAQs paragraph one and it clearly states what is covered by a CDL.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Even if the motorhome is a non-commercial vehicle some states require the non-commercial class B license because the vehicle is over 26,000 # and/or has air brakes.

It is highly unlikely any of us will be stopped at random, but if we are stopped for an infraction, or are involved in an accident having at least a driver license appropriate for the class will all of a sudden be very important. It is possible an insurance company will refuse to pay claims if you are driving out of license. It is probable that if you are stopped for any reason and the police determine you do not have the correct license, you will be hiring a driver to move your bus to a safe place or paying for a tow.

If you tow a trailer, and it is a large heavy trailer in exess of 10,000 lbs there are some states that will require a Class A license. It is not worth the risk in my opinion. If your state requires a license the best thing you can do is get that license. My insurance company (Interstate, through Explorer) offers a discount for a commercial driver license, and that alone will pay for the license over time.

[0533]

Hello Jon,

I agree in general with your comments, and like anything else worth doing, the advanced license would be helpful for many reasons including improving ones skill level.
Most states have reciprocal agreements with each other, in other words Illinois accepts a Florida license requirements etc. I can not find a clear answer in the Florida DMV laws that say that I need a commercial (CDL) license to operate a non-commercial vehicle, only a reference to a max weight of 26001 LBS. It appears to be somewhat of a grey area. I want to be legal, but I also want to head out to Oregon and pick up my marathon and have some fun. I would sure like to know the legal Florida answer to this question. On Monday I will call the DMV and hopefully get a senior english speaker who can direct me to the chapter and verse.

thanks,

Bruce

[0533]

Hello All:

I think I have dodged the bullet this time. I went to a page on the Florida DMV site that exempts motor vehicles from the CDL requirement as long as the vehicle is used for non-commercial use

CDL Exemptions: Florida DMV.

The following persons are exempt from the requirements to obtain a commercial driver license in the state of Florida:

* Drivers of authorized emergency vehicles that are equipped with extraordinary audible warning devices that display red or blue lights and are on call to respond to emergencies;or
* Military personnel driving military vehicles; or
* Farmers transporting farm supplies or farm machinery, or transporting agricultural products to or from the first place of storage or processing or directly to or from market, within 150 miles of their farm; or
* Drivers of recreational vehicles used for recreational purposes; or
* Drivers who operate straight trucks (single units) that are exclusively transporting their own tangible personal property which is not for sale.
* An employee of a publicly owned transit system who is limited to moving vehicles for maintenance or parking purposes exclusively within the restricted-access confines of a transit system's property.

Thanks for your help.

Bruce.

[Ray Davis]

Drivers of recreational vehicles used for recreational purposes

Bruce, that sounds like it's the key. The important thing (at least it was in CA), is to make sure it it licensed as a recreational vehicle. If you go in and say "bus" in the DMV, you can sometimes get the clerks confused. In CA at least, ours will specifically say "motorhome" somewhere on the registration.

Ray

ps: As an example, however, in CA if the coach is over 40 ft, then it requires a Class B non-commercial license.

[phorner]

It's my understanding that the state of Florida makes the exemption if it is a recreation vehicle.That seems to be the key.

However, it is probably a good idea to have the appropriate Class license in the event of a legal challenge (read lawsuit).

[Alek&Lucia]

Well, in ILLINOIS you have:
up to 26001 LBS
above 26001 LBS
and CDL (comercial)
What is the problem, our Prevosts are above 26001 LBS and we need this kind of driver license. You don't want attorneys or insurance companys to explain to us again in case of an accident when they do not pay the claim, because you were driving with out a proper license. Case closed !

[Jon Wehrenberg]

As Bruce points out there are states, TN being one of them, that has no requirement for a license other than the one required to drive a car.

That means you can legally own and drive a Prevost anywhere in this country. But the minute you end up rear ending the a$$hole that changed lanes in front of you and then spiked his brakes you can also count on his lawyer making a big deal of the fact you don't have a license to prove you actually know how to drive that big rig. With all respect to Darl, I used the same concerns relative to braking the toad. I was less concerned about the 20 foot shorter stopping distance than I was about the lawyer describing me as irresponsible to the jury.

Either make sure you have a very big umbrella policy or spend a buck or two and get the license you really do not need.

[0533]

As Bruce points out there are states, TN being one of them, that has no requirement for a license other than the one required to drive a car.

That means you can legally own and drive a Prevost anywhere in this country. But the minute you end up rear ending the a$$hole that changed lanes in front of you and then spiked his brakes you can also count on his lawyer making a big deal of the fact you don't have a license to prove you actually know how to drive that big rig. With all respect to Darl, I used the same concerns relative to braking the toad. I was less concerned about the 20 foot shorter stopping distance than I was about the lawyer describing me as irresponsible to the jury.

Either make sure you have a very big umbrella policy or spend a buck or two and get the license you really do not need.
I agree with you Jon, we need to be very careful, and we should all have the CDL in a perfect world, but until the timing is right, the best plan is to learn what the limits are for both the coach and the driver.

In regards to the Florida drivers license, and this holds true from what I am reading in FMCA's Jan issue many states allow a regular license holder to operate a over 26000 LBS, Air brake rigs, and each of these states law enforcement recognize the license. The differences appear to be more toward the overall length, posted speed limits and height. They vary considerably from state to state.

Now liability is another animal all together, and in my opinion it should be separated from all else, like Jon said, when you are sitting in court, its too late to protect yourself and your assets.

Like many of you all, and for this very reason, my coach is in a Montana LLC, its a corporation, I am a member and everything is with an attorney in the Truck capital of the free world. many people use Montana LLC's to avoid the tax man, but the real benefit in my opinion is liability.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bruce...ask any pilot on this forum if he is able to afford enough insurance to make him feel comfortable giving plane rides to non family members.

The reality is that you can register anything you want in a corporation like my plane is, but as driver or pilot you will be on the lawsuit right alongside the LLC or corporation. There is no legal way to avoid being a part of the lawsuit with 100% of your personal assets up for grabs unless you hire a professional driver, and even then you may have responsibility because you should have foreseen he would have an accident.

We may know our stopping distances, our G forces in lateral acceleration, and our capability in evasive maneuvers, but that does not prevent some jerk from pulling in too close after passing, and then locking his brakes up when he thinks he sees a deer. By the time you mentally calculate you don't have enough stopping distance your headlights are in his glove box and he is on the phone to Johnnie Cochran's law firm.

We are targets. The entire world views us as rich people who got that way because we stole from the little people. It is not bad enough that service techs pad the bill because we can afford it, but anybody involved in a fender bender with us sees us as the path to a life of ease and riches.

Driving defensively is a must, but so is dotting the "I's" and crossing the "Tees" in every other single area we can. They really are out to get us.

[jello_jeep]

If you really need a class A license, then you by all means should have it. If you are getting one just for "yuks" so you are convered for more classes than you really drive, you should bear in mind that in some states, like here in CA, as a commercial driver the point structure for violatioins is different, and sentencing / fine guidelines are different too.

You could find yourself with a suspended license over having too many points for something that would not have been a big deal with a non commercial license.

I believe that the BAC limit for being DUI is lower if you have a commercial license as well, even if you are not operating a commercial vehicle wihen you get caught.

Not that anyone should be DUI anyway, but things happen, and it is a factor.

This came to light when one of our employees that has a commercial got some minor ticket, went to court and the judge was fixin to let him off with a warning unitl the "helpful" clerk pointed out there was a mandatory action on the part of the judge due to him holding a Class A, even though he was not driving a commercial vehicle at the time.

All food for thought.

[0533]

If you really need a class A license, then you by all means should have it. If you are getting one just for "yuks" so you are convered for more classes than you really drive, you should bear in mind that in some states, like here in CA, as a commercial driver the point structure for violatioins is different, and sentencing / fine guidelines are different too.

You could find yourself with a suspended license over having too many points for something that would not have been a big deal with a non commercial license.

I believe that the BAC limit for being DUI is lower if you have a commercial license as well, even if you are not operating a commercial vehicle wihen you get caught.

Not that anyone should be DUI anyway, but things happen, and it is a factor.

This came to light when one of our employees that has a commercial got some minor ticket, went to court and the judge was fixin to let him off with a warning unitl the "helpful" clerk pointed out there was a mandatory action on the part of the judge due to him holding a Class A, even though he was not driving a commercial vehicle at the time.

All food for thought.
Good example of what can happen. I did notice that there were different rules, urine tests, and other mandatory regulations. I am happy for now knowing that I am at least legal. I did however figure that in a few states ( FMCA Article, Motorhome Regulations) could trip us up on the following: Combined length: Nj. 53',NC., 60' CT., 60' Il., 60', IN., 60', MD. 60', MA., 62'. Max Speed: IL., 55mph, IN., 55mph, OH., 55mph. I don't think that any of our combined units are 60', possibly a Mini Cooper, not much else.

[0533]

Bruce...ask any pilot on this forum if he is able to afford enough insurance to make him feel comfortable giving plane rides to non family members.

The reality is that you can register anything you want in a corporation like my plane is, but as driver or pilot you will be on the lawsuit right alongside the LLC or corporation. There is no legal way to avoid being a part of the lawsuit with 100% of your personal assets up for grabs unless you hire a professional driver, and even then you may have responsibility because you should have foreseen he would have an accident.

We may know our stopping distances, our G forces in lateral acceleration, and our capability in evasive maneuvers, but that does not prevent some jerk from pulling in too close after passing, and then locking his brakes up when he thinks he sees a deer. By the time you mentally calculate you don't have enough stopping distance your headlights are in his glove box and he is on the phone to Johnnie Cochran's law firm.

We are targets. The entire world views us as rich people who got that way because we stole from the little people. It is not bad enough that service techs pad the bill because we can afford it, but anybody involved in a fender bender with us sees us as the path to a life of ease and riches.

Driving defensively is a must, but so is dotting the "I's" and crossing the "Tees" in every other single area we can. They really are out to get us.
When I met Mango Mike at his restaurant the other evening, that is exactly how he characterized you when I asked who you were.

I do agree, but can't stay home, and life is too short to think about getting sued, anyway Johnny Cochran will not be available this time to help out OJ.

Bruce PS> Next step after the LLC is to place all of it in a trust, or give it all away. We need a good member lawyer to guide us beyond this point.

[BrianE]

As usual Jon is able to boil the problem down to basics. We all agree that reasonable caution along with preventive stuff is indeed the best defense against accidents. With that in mind and knowing anyone who has walked the walk to be able to own our marvelous toys, going through the process of obtaining a CDL license is weak tea. The truckers we have in our midst are very special guys indeed, they are very atypical of folks in a trade that doesn't require a degree. It doesn't take much effort to provide yourself with this additional bit of insurance. The written exam can be studied for and passed with a little reading. The driving test for an "A" can be done with the rental of a +26,000lb auto-shifting truck pulling an equipment trailer. Took me a half day and $400.

Additional benefit. When the trooper asks for your license, he thinks twice before writing the ticket. He assumes you're a pro and that the license provides your income. (This may not be the case in Ohio :eek:). Edit: Jello. It was the CHP that gave me a free pass. Maybe the point system worked for me?

[jello_jeep]

Could be Brian. After meeting you I would suspecet a much more likely scenario would be that you were the first person that day who had treated him like a human being, didn't hand him a bowl of crap, and spoke the chosen language...

Most of them spend their days writing tickets to commercial drivers. Just smiling and not being a jerk goes a long ways.

Just my .02 !

[Tully]

I live in Illinois and contacted my attorney on this matter. He states the Illinois says "Non-commericial Use"- recreational vehicle with no limit in weight- normal license is accepted.

I asked if he were sure. He said the Non-CDL study book for the State Of Illinois starts out it's first paragraph to address this issue.

If being used non-commericial- no issues. He is going to mail me this code book with it high-lighted in yellow to keep in my coach. Also, will be mailing me a invoice for his 15 minutes of service.

Tully

[BENC]

Not sure what your endorsements read in the back of your FL drivers licence but mine reads "CLASS E - Any non-commercial vehicle with a GVWR less than 26,001 lbs. or any RV." I never asked for anything special on this but it was there when I updated my old licence for a new one.

[0533]

Not sure what your endorsements read in the back of your FL drivers licence but mine reads "CLASS E - Any non-commercial vehicle with a GVWR less than 26,001 lbs. or any RV." I never asked for anything special on this but it was there when I updated my old licence for a new one.
I have a Florida License as well. It says the following:

"CLASS E - Any non-commercial vehicle with a GVWR less than 26,001 lbs.

It did not refer to the last bit about "Any Rv", I wish it did as it gave me a bit of a scare until I read the exemptions on the Florida DMV site, see below:

Florida CDL Exemptions:

The following persons are exempt from the requirements to obtain a commercial driver license:

* Drivers of authorized emergency vehicles that are equipped with extraordinary audible warning devices that display red or blue lights and are on call to respond to emergencies;or
* Military personnel driving military vehicles; or
* Farmers transporting farm supplies or farm machinery, or transporting agricultural products to or from the first place of storage or processing or directly to or from market, within 150 miles of their farm; or
* Drivers of recreational vehicles used for recreational purposes; or
* Drivers who operate straight trucks (single units) that are exclusively transporting their own tangible personal property which is not for sale.
* An employee of a publicly owned transit system who is limited to moving vehicles for maintenance or parking purposes exclusively within the restricted-access confines of a transit system's property.

[Petervs]

Could be Brian. After meeting you I would suspecet a much more likely scenario would be that you were the first person that day who had treated him like a human being, didn't hand him a bowl of crap, and spoke the chosen language...

Most of them spend their days writing tickets to commercial drivers. Just smiling and not being a jerk goes a long ways.

Just my .02 !


Hey Jello Jeep, I often see Brian early in the day AND late in the day, and he ALWAYS treats me like an a;ien, hands me two bowls of crap, and tries out his pidgin english on me......

Actually, if you hold a professional drivers license, even if you do not need one, you may very well be held to a higher standard in a court of law. My state requires nothing more than the license they give 16 year olds to be legal todrive the bus, and that is all I intend to carry. Not to say I should not have the skills and knowledge of a professional. Maybe Brian will teach me. Now, that could take 2 minutes or 2 years depending on your point of view!

[BrianE]

Since it took Peter nine months to think of a cheap shot answer to our exchange Warren, I would guess it may take a little longer than 2 years to even get his attention let alone for him to actually learn anything.

[jello_jeep]

Yeah Brian, next thing you know he is going to be talking about the "talkie" movies being in vogue! :D

[Will Garner]

Bruce,

I can only speak to my experience in NC. When I went to get an upgrade on my license I was looking for a CDL. Our DMV told me, no way with that vehicle - it does not seat 16 or more persons. I even countered but that does not change the nature and technical systems of the vehicle. I wound up with a "twenner" license. Its called a Classified B in NC. I also did not qualify for a Classified A license because I would not be towing a trailer with a GVW exceeding 10,000 pounds.

OK, I know it is not good practice to question a DMV Examiner's knowledge base. However, in NC they were part of the DOT until recently and I work for the NCDOT. I passed the written test, 40 correct out of 50 possible (I had 30 for 30 at one point and then let down my guard against their sneaky way of wording questions). I took the road test the next day. That examiner stated she had never given a test to anyone in this kind of vehicle. She also said it might take awhile to complete the road test - like from here to Myrtle Beach SC. I told her I was operating at her direction with a full tank of fuel so just tell me where to point the bus and we would be off! Well we did not go to the beach, really big disappointment, but I did pass the test. So right now until I get a bus that seats 16 plus I've gone as high up the license scale as I can go.

I've got to go look where I can put in a few more seats - later.

[Jeff Bayley]

I just read all three pages of this thread and was surprised that there was no mention of what someone referred to once as an "air brake adendem". Now, I have no idea if this is something that even exist but they characterized it as keeping a non CDL license like most of us have now but getting some........."air brake" certification added to it. Maybe this comes automatically with another "class" of license. ??? Seemed screwy to me. What the heck do you need to know about the air brakes except that if the air leaks the bus comes to a stop instead of speeding out of control.

[Ray Davis]

Jeff,

I can't say for other states, but in CA a class -B non-commercial license, required for RV's longer than 40 ft, specficially indicates that an airbrake test is NOT needed, even if the vehicle being tested has airbrakes.

HOWEVER, that being what's in the rule books, the examiners seem to have a different idea, and I've heard from several CA residents who have taken the Class B test, that they've gotten a full-blown Class A (CDL) type of test, including full airbrake test.

The airbrake test in CA has around 5 parts, which test that the compressor is working, that it cuts off at proper pressure, and cuts in at proper pressure. It also tests that your airbrake alarm goes off at a specified pressure. Sometimes they also require that you pump the brakes long enough that you get below the emergency brake threshold, and your emergency brake pops on.

There is no AirBrake Addendum to a Class B in CA.

Ray

[Sid Tuls]

Ray do you have a Class A [CDL] ?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Since the Spearfish attendees got up close and personal with 4 state troopers involved with vehicle safety it would seem they would have an interest in our rigs and all the things related to them such as axle weights, driver licenses, lengths, etc.

The short version is we are off their radar. They have no special licensing requirement. Apparently a bunch of other states also allow a 16 year old with a new license to drive our rigs also.

I guess if an owner lives in a state where there is no special license or skills test required, like TN then you need no endorsements or special class licences. The police made it abundantly clear they had zero interest in RVs or enforcing the state's laws regarding weights, or lengths.

I don't agree, but my opinion doesn't count.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon and others sorry for my attitude but what does that tell you.

It tells me they really have little regard for safety and rather are just another bunch of bureaucrats that are out for our money.

A gang of programed robots out separating truckers from their wallets. I got a badge and the authority syndrome.

Until recently I always looked at professional drivers as having a lot in common with the DOT. We spend our lives on the road and are judged by our performance behind the wheel.

I do not believe in stereotypes and would be willing to admit there are probably that 10% who are professional but from my experiences almost NEVER am extended that same consideration when encountering them.

Be careful what you wish for Jon ya know truckers are limited to 500 miles a day and have to log 10 hours to do it. Is this the kind of over site you would like for us? Transponders with satellite links to monitor our every move every minute.

[Kenneth Brewer]

Excuse me, but I am confused as to what the air brake test has to do with a CDL. Can someone explain a little more what the issue is/was? Am I missing something. In my experience, the air brake test is part of the inspection for vehicle registration and registration renewal (yearly), along with engine emissions, regardless of the type license being held by the (registered) owner/user.

This test was performed by the inspector, which in NJ used to be done in the DMV inspection station. That changed some years ago and is now performed by private but state licensed and listed truck/heavy road vehicle garages and no longer handled at state run DMV stations (and where it is done in PA., in my recollection).

Also, if possible, can anyone tell me what states require anything special in the way of a driver's license (class) to drive a non-commercial vehicle for non-commercial use that is classified as an RV, and for what weight/GVW?

Thanks.

[garyde]

Hi Ken. I know next to nothing regarding other states. California does not require a air brake certification as far as I have been able to learn. The Class B license in California is what is necessary when operating a Coach 40 feet and larger, as well as over 22,000 lbs. There is no brake test associated with this license although I have heard some examiners may ask questions regardless. Each state have their own license requirements but I understand they honor other states Laws for out of state drivers. Some states have little or no requirements for driving any RV.

[Ray Davis]

The Class B license in California is what is necessary when operating a Coach 40 feet and larger, as well as over 22,000 lbs.

Not exactly Gary. The CA vehicle specifically indicates an RV (called a "house car" in CA) 40 feet or less can be operated with a Class C license. It does not matter if it's over 22,000 pounds.

The 22,000 limit applies to vehicles OTHER than RV's, like trucks, etc.

So, with a class C a 40 ft Prevost is legal. A 45 is not.

Ray

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Ken if one were to take a vehicle, any vehicle, with air brakes for a behind the wheel exam THAT VEHICLE would have to pass an air brake inspection, period.

When one goes to get a CDL "air brakes" is just one of a few WRITTEN exams that need to be passed for that.

If you are in a state that does not require some additional drivers certifications for your bus (most) you probably will need neither.

If the state does require additional certification on your personal DL then probably both you and your vehicle will need to pass those tests.

For those who would like to unnessessarily cost yourself time and money just because you WANT to have a CDL you will have to pass a written and the bus will have to pass a physical.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

Personally I don't care if a motorhome driver has a CDL or any special license. Apparently some states agree with my attitude.

But it is my opinion that if a person is going to slide behind the wheel of a vehicle that requires skills beyond those required for a passenger car then I want to be assured that person has skills appropriate for that vehicle. Period.

We have been in campgrounds watching people try to get a camping trailer backed into a site for the better part of an hour. They have their spouse standing behind the camper with a walkie-talkie and they still cannot get it right. We have seen the same thing with big motorhomes. We have watched folks drive over picnic tables. We have seen folks in Prevost coaches and equal sized motorhomes incapable of staying in their own lane in construction zones.

I'll bet there are drivers out there who do not know how to do a pre-trip brake test.

My point is if a person is sharing the road with others, then they have an obligation to possess the skills necessary to drive the vehicle. If enough folks driving large vehicles screw up then it is just a matter of time before it will be necessary to possess a license appropriate for the vehicle.

And that requirement will not come from legislation to start. It will come from insurance companies who will not cover the driver unless he or she has demonstrated those skills, usually by possessing a license that says they do. The reason truckers have restrictive laws is because before the laws were passed there were some that ignored common sense and became hazards. They used "speed" to keep awake or they drove trucks with faulty brakes, or they hauled loads in excess of what was reasonable. Now because of those that constantly pushed the limits, all truckers are heavily regulated and have become a revenue source for some states.

Its only a question of time before motorhome owners will be as regulated. Before that happens however I think the Montana license thing will become a revenue source and will become illegal if it is not already.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Anyone who has sat through one of your airbrake seminars probably came away with more than you could ever get by getting a study guide for a CDL. These guides are available to any who ask at any DMV.

I agree we who do educate ourselves about this aspect are for sure better prepared for breakdowns and emergencies and safer too.

I would like to extend my help to those who have not seen one of Jons seminars and who have never read a CDL study guide. Go and pick one up. If you have any questions about something call me anytime and I will clarify things you may need help with 708-243-7871. Post questions here, all could benefit.

IMO this is a better alternative than subjecting yourself to more regulation.

Aquire the knowledge, screw the official endorsment.

[phorner]

There are many CDL guides available on-line from several states. In theory, they should all be very much alike.

You can download the NJ CDL manual in PDF form from this link...

http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Commercial/CDLManual.htm

[phorner]

I like this quote from the manual....

"2.7.3 – Space to the Sides
Commercial vehicles are often wide and take up most
of a lane. Safe drivers will manage what little space
they have. You can do this by keeping your vehicle
centered in your lane, and avoid driving alongside
others."

Seems most truckers haven't read this 'cause they sure don't mind driving alongside me for miles at a time :eek:

[jonnie]

Paul,

The solution could be that one of you has to go faster!

John

[phorner]

Yep,

I usually end up just tapping my brakes to let them by......

Don't like lingering next to those trailer tires in case one of 'em decides to come apart while next to the bus....

Heaven forbid that they should accelerate beyond their cruise control setting!

[hhoppe]

The more knowledge you obtain before getting behind the wheel of a 45 Ft. 48,000 + pound 102 inch wide vehicle the safer you, your passengers and the other drivers around you are. Please don't think in terms how little you can get by with. Get a commercial drivers license hand book and be prepared to handle any situation that you find yourself in. Be prepared to pass any test be it a drivers license test or actual situations arising on the road.
Here in California we travel in heavy traffic situations most of the time. I am glad I prepared myself for a commercial license and received a class B non commercial license. The examiner did give me the air brake test prior to my driving portion of the test. We have a resposibility to be prepared to handle our busses in the safest manner possible.

[Ray Davis]

Harry, I'm curious ...

I'm sure you read as well as I did that the air-brake test was not required, but I've heard from several people that they were indeed given an airbrake test.

However, Ken mentioned to me he was "talked through" an airbrake test, rather than asked to perform one without any guidance. Ie. the guy gave him the instructions, and Ken performed the test (he could have done it alone as well).

So, I was wondering, in your case, did they "walk you through" an airbrake test, OR did they tell you to perform one, and grade you on it? I certainly don't mind knowing how to do an airbrake test, and I do. However, it bothers me when the rule book they give you specifically indicates no airbrake test, and then the examiner gives one anyway.


Ray

[hhoppe]

Ray: In my case he asked me to perform each step as he verbally instructed them. It kept me pretty calm knowing in advance what each step proved to him and I. All went well. On the written portion they had a medical question form to fill out. I told the truth on the form to all questions. The " have you ever had high blood pressure " one I answered yes. This triggered a request for a doctors form filled out by my doctor. No problem here, I just had my doctor fill it out and took it back to them. You will do fine on your exam I'm sure.

[garyde]

:confused:I re read the DMV Handbook on RV's and Trailers,

What it states is: A Class C license; 'any 2 axle vehicle with a GVWR of 26000 lbs or less, any 3 axle vehicle weighing 6000 lbs or less gross, any house car 40 feet and under , in length.'

The Class B reads; 'all vehicles under class C, a housecar over 40 feet but not over 45 feet, with endorsement.'
So, no weight restrictions really on the RV's no matter what size. Just footage.





Not exactly Gary. The CA vehicle specifically indicates an RV (called a "house car" in CA) 40 feet or less can be operated with a Class C license. It does not matter if it's over 22,000 pounds.

The 22,000 limit applies to vehicles OTHER than RV's, like trucks, etc.

So, with a class C a 40 ft Prevost is legal. A 45 is not.

Ray

[Ray Davis]

So, no weight restrictions really on the RV's no matter what size. Just footage

That's exactly how I read it too.

Ray

[Ray Davis]

The " have you ever had high blood pressure " one I answered yes. This triggered a request for a doctors form filled out by my doctor.

Harry, that's strange. I was under the impression that ALL Class B licensees require the doctor signed physical form, regardless of previous health. I am inferring from what you posted that it was optional, based upon response to health questions?

I'm glad to hear that he talked you through the airbrake test, rather than "testing" you on it. It's certainly good to know, and it's for both of your safety to do a test before driving off in the coach. But, as the book said, it's not required as part of the testing.

I've got to get my test going here pretty soon. I just have the chicken and egg problem of getting a 45 bus to a testing center, when I'm not allowed to drive it. I am hoping to take my test with Janet Zittrer when she takes hers later this year. If not, I'll get someone with a Class B (or higher) to drive my coach out to the DMV for me!

Ray

[Darl-Wilson]

The question about the air brake test prior to the test ride is simple. It is just like the examiner giving a test in the family car. They check the headlights,turn signals, W/S wipers, etc. The same applies when you take a drivers test in your bus. They are simply checking for the safety of the bus before you move with them aboard. All test drives must be conducted in a safe and fully functional vehicle.

Some states (like Nevada) require the air brake written test as a separate part of the exam for a Class B.

This site (http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml), while not current to this year, gives the RV license requirements for all states.

This whole subject has been discussed ad nauseam on this site and I am sure it will continue since laws change or are not clearly defined. My take on this is if your state requires the license then get it. If it isn't required just make sure you are clearly capable of operating your vehicle safely. In the event of an accident your qualifications to operate the equipment will surely be questioned, not only by the authorities but by a host of lawyers intent of separating you and your insurance company from a lot of money. There is no substitute for good planning.

[Robert Short]

I just read all three pages of this thread and was surprised that there was no mention of what someone referred to once as an "air brake adendem". Now, I have no idea if this is something that even exist but they characterized it as keeping a non CDL license like most of us have now but getting some........."air brake" certification added to it. Maybe this comes automatically with another "class" of license. ??? Seemed screwy to me. What the heck do you need to know about the air brakes except that if the air leaks the bus comes to a stop instead of speeding out of control.

I have a Quebec drivers lisence ,where I am domisiled ,and they do not require any special lisence to drive an RV with or without air brakes.
I also spend time in British Columbia where they require "an air ticket " to drive an RV with air brakes.I just completed a 20 hour course on air brakes put on by a local driving school in BC which was most informative.This week I will visit a lisence bureau in BC and and try to take their exam on air brakes so I will conform to their requirements.However I doubt that they will allow me to take their BC examin because I do not have a BC lisence as stated earlier.
I think it is important to know how to read the time,but I don't need to know how the watch works.The same applies to these air brakes in my opinion.
During the course,it was mentioned that in the States,no special lisence was required so it is interesting to see that people are speaking about it.

On another matter I hope to be leaving BC next week heading south for warmer weather on my new RV and am looking foreward to the experience.My innitial thoughts were to head for the coast of Washington State and wonder next to the ocean.Now I'm told that at this time of year,the coast can be cold and the weather not so hot.... So it may be more suitable to to head east somewhere around Portland and visit the interior following the route 84,I think the Columbia river if I heard it correctly.
Any thoughts out there ?Allways great to hear from people who have done it before.Best Regards and thanks for sharing your thoughts

[Darl-Wilson]

I have a Quebec drivers lisence ,where I am domisiled ,and they do not require any special lisence to drive an RV with or without air brakes.
I also spend time in British Columbia where they require "an air ticket " to drive an RV with air brakes.I just completed a 20 hour course on air brakes put on by a local driving school in BC which was most informative.This week I will visit a lisence bureau in BC and and try to take their exam on air brakes so I will conform to their requirements.However I doubt that they will allow me to take their BC examin because I do not have a BC lisence as stated earlier.
I think it is important to know how to read the time,but I don't need to know how the watch works.The same applies to these air brakes in my opinion.
During the course,it was mentioned that in the States,no special lisence was required so it is interesting to see that people are speaking about it.

On another matter I hope to be leaving BC next week heading south for warmer weather on my new RV and am looking foreward to the experience.My innitial thoughts were to head for the coast of Washington State and wonder next to the ocean.Now I'm told that at this time of year,the coast can be cold and the weather not so hot.... So it may be more suitable to to head east somewhere around Portland and visit the interior following the route 84,I think the Columbia river if I heard it correctly.
Any thoughts out there ?Allways great to hear from people who have done it before.Best Regards and thanks for sharing your thoughts

Robert, !-84 East of Portland is NOT the place you want to go to get warm. The Columbia Gorge (http://www.oregon.com/weather/history_gorge.cfm) weather link. As you see in this link the highs around Hood River and The Dalles are just above freezing in the winter and I can tell you from experience the wind is cold and howls like a banshee. Go south young man, if you want warmth. Southern CA, Southern Nevada, and Arizona is the place to be west of the Rockies. We have lots of members living in South Texas and all along the Gulf of Mexico that will tell you that is the best place to be in the winter. Anyway, stay away from the Washington and Oregon coast in the winter. These are beautiful places in the summer but like BC they are not a warm, dry, vacation spot.

As for you license question, go back and look at some of the posts. There are several links (I checked them and they are still alive) and lots of posts that give you good info. My own personal opinion is there also.

Have a nice vacation and welcome to the group!

Darl

[Ray Davis]

So, since I now own a 45 coach, I am required by CA law to get a Class B license. I ran down to the DMV today to get the written test of out the way and file my physical. I had called to schedule a drivers test, however they wouldn't even do that, until I did a written.

There were several interesting points about getting that done today:

* The DMV guys had never done a Class B, and they took almost an hour to try to figure out how to get me into the computer. They kept asking other people, getting out manuals. They kept showing me a page about trailers over 10,000 lbs, which technically a class A commercial requirement.

* Once they got me into the computer, there was a bunch of trying to figure out what test I should take. I had been told (incorrectly it appears), that the test was just another class C test again, and that's what I had studied for. They ultimately came up with a "45 foot housecar" test. Contents were out of a RV guide I had read through once a couple of months ago.

* Luckily, I passed without issue, and now I have a new class C license (paper), and a Class B learners permit.

And I was able to schedule my drivers test for later this month!

Ray

[flyu2there]

Reason number 1,204,676 to move out of California!! :D

[BrianE]

There are actually about 38,000,000 legal reasons and an estimated 3,000,000 illegal ones. :mad:

[jello_jeep]

And sadly with the upcoming leadership, the 3,000,000 will likely increase like my blood pressure!



There are actually about 38,000,000 legal reasons and an estimated 3,000,000 illegal ones. :mad:

[hhoppe]

For those that don't like Caliufornia; Who Needs Ya!

[dalej]

Hey Harry.... I still like Cauliflower

[Ray Davis]

Wow! Talk about thread creep! :D

[Ray Davis]

Well, after much dreaded anticipation I took the Class B drivers test today in Fullerton CA.

I had tried to schedule out at San Bernadino where they have a huge CDL testing center, but they were solidly booked 30 days in advance, and the person on the phone indicated they could only take reservations 30 days in advance (no walk up's on this type of driver's test)

Fullerton was available, but it's small, an horribly busy with hundreds of cars whizzing around a very small parking lot.

Anyway, all is done, and I've passed, and glad I don't need to drive around the city streets of Fullerton and vacinity again any time soon!

Whoohoo!

Ray

PS: A big thanks to Ken Z (Bluevost) for driving with me up to the test (I only had a learners permit), and sitting there for nearly 2.5 hours.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

That a boy Ray, I knew you could do it.

:) JIM

[hhoppe]

Good going Ray! Now there's at least two of us legal to drive our busses in CA.

[Coloradobus]

Way to go way. What's your hourly drivers rate.?:D sure glad I got grandfathered in way back when.

[Coloradobus]

Way to go Ray. Sure glad I got grandfathered in way back when.

New news: Rover has been let go/sacked/canned. The new toad hired is an LX-470. and YES, contrary to what Toyota/Lexus says ( they just dont want to deal with it), its towable 4 down equipped with a manual transfer lever with a neutral position. For 2009, they need to be trailered.:(

[Ray Davis]

Way to go Ray. Sure glad I got grandfathered in way back when.

Thanks Jim. So, I didn't realize there was any way to be "grand-fathered"? Nothing in all my reading mentioned that possibility. I guess you're referring to a CO law?

Ray

ps: Harry! Don't forget, both Janet and Ken have Class B licenses. Janet got hers just over a month ago. And then, of course, Kevin has the license-of-all-licenses! (CDL)

:D

[Coloradobus]

Sorry Ray,

No mystery, I have been in the bus business (seated coaches) before there were CDL's. Back in Montana, in the 70's all we had were auto licenses and Chauffeur license and I had a chauffeurs license.
So, when the CDL came into being, we were given an abbreviated CDL class and we were grandfathered in.:D

[sticks]

Just bought a 2005 Liberty last month and the previous owner was listed from Montana (LLC?). How do we go about registering our coach in a Montana LLC?I haven't gone down to the local DOT to pay the staggering sales tax, etc. because I just received the title 2 days ago.

[jonnie]

Sticks

Call Jared Heggen in Montana and he will set it up for you.
1-888-777-5032

John

[MangoMike]

Or call:

Bennett Law Office
135 W. Main St.
Missoula, MT 59802
866.543.5803


Mike

[jack14r]

If you are going to register it in Montana do not do anything else until you get a Montana LLC.If the title is still open you are in good shape,you will need a bill of sale from the previous owner to your new LLC.

[Ray Davis]

Do be careful before you jump into the Montana LLC. Many states now are actively targeting coaches with Montana plates, especially those towing a car with plates from other states.

Both CA and CO are both actively pursuing people who are not paying sales tax, and using a Montana LLC to do this. In some cases they are slapping you with tax evasion charges.

Just be careful, check some other posts here on Montana LLC's before making a final decision.

ray

[garyde]

Before you decide on registering your Coach thru an LLC in Montana, it is very important you speak first with a law office in Montana who specializes in this work. The laws are different per State regardng bringing a Coach into the state with out of state plates and registration. To be fully informed first prior to making a decision is very important.
California changes its rules like I change socks, so its very important to know the current laws.

[Sid Tuls]

Just one more thing if you go that route make sure you register your tow there also or you will be a dead giveaway to the highway patrol. Like Ray Davis said read all the posts on Montana LLC. The broker our goverment gets the more the rules of each state will get harder on Montana LLC. Thats my two cents. I guess I'm just bitter because I Got caught:rolleyes:

[gmcbuffalo]

Sid and Ray it seem to me to make sense to have the tow the same as the bus. Even a LLC can't drive around town in a bus. In the long run it would be cheaper to have a tow that is only a LLC tow, if it becomes a legal issue.
GregM

[shookie]

the class b endorsement in pa applies to vehicles ove 26000 with air brakes, non commercial...the question part of the test is derived from certain sections of the cdl test...the driving part of the test is the same as a cdl test...the reason, i am told, the laws are quite grey, is that all but one state recognizes this type of license...unless all 50 states agree to enforce the license, we as drivers, i am told, are not obligated to have anything more than a regular license...i personally acquired the class b endorsement...it just seems to be the right thing to do....best, shookie..by the way, the state not recognizing the endorsed license system is michigan....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Sticks, I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but if I were one I would ask you a few questions because you are clearly entering an area where you need to do some risk versus reward calculations.

To anyone with an IQ above room temperature a Montanna LLC is a tax EVASION technique. Unless you specifically have a business purpose for the Montanna LLC, and that business requires the use of a coach your only purpose is to not pay sales taxes that your home state would impose.

Some states have already started going after the taxes they feel entitled to collect from folks that have put their coaches in a Montanna LLC. So here are some questions. How long do you keep your coaches? Obviously if you flip them routinely, an LLC will save you a lot of money in sales taxes. How risk averse are you? Your home state may never go after tax evaders. Are you willing to risk that? All it takes is a grumpy neighbor to turn you in and make your life miserable.

Are you willing to do all that is necessary to insulate yourself from grief? To really appear to be based in Montanna and have a purpose can you find a way to use a coach for business purposes? Are you willing to register the toad there? What about getting a driver license there? There are still no laws against anyone having two domiciles.

I spoke to a guy many years ago that tried to beat California out of its sales tax by registering a new Prevost in Nevada. The trouble is he continued to tow a California registered toad and still had a California driver license. He was caught, and his costs were the sales tax, interest, and a $75,000 fine. As the states get caught up in our debt crisis they are going to go after every penny they can. Big fancy buses are very visible targets and the average voter and citizen is likely to love seeing the rich folks get spanked.

[ajhaig]

Every state is different, I'd check with the MT firms that handle these types of LLC's and then get a second opinion from an attorney that practices in your home state.

We sold our property in our former "home" state and full-timed for a year. The MT LLC option worked for us and it was perfectly legitimate. Also, in our former "home" state it was ok to register a vehicle in a different state provided that the vehicle was kept out of state (there was a provision in the law that would allow us to bring the vehicle into that state for something like 60 days per year).

To Jon's point, I'd be very leery of anything that seems like a gray area; states are hungry for any revenues they can get their hands on.

[Ray Davis]

IN CA now they routinely have people going into RV parks, and looking for Montana plates on a RV, and CA plates on a toad.

The CHP will stop and ask you around 5 questions:

1. Which state is your RV registered in?
2. Which state is your cars registered in?
3. Which state do you live in?
4. Which state do you file income tax in?
5. Which state do you work in?

If your answer to #1 is Montana, and everything else is CA, then be prepared for problems.

I hear the same is try in CO, and many other states are following their lead.

Ray

[michaeldterry]

Just bought a 2005 Liberty last month and the previous owner was listed from Montana (LLC?). How do we go about registering our coach in a Montana LLC?I haven't gone down to the local DOT to pay the staggering sales tax, etc. because I just received the title 2 days ago.

BTW sticks - I noticed that you did get a picture posted for your sig - beautiful bus! :D

Also - a comment on driver licenses - Even though I've been driving intercity buses (Eagles, MCI's, Prevosts, etc.) since 1980, I got my Class B CDL with passenger endorsement back in about 1990 when the DOT first required them as I was driving intercity buses for touring DCI drum and bugle corps each summer. I know that it's widely accepted in many states that you don't need a CDL to drive a private coach/motorhome, but I've always kept my CDL current "just in case" (and I still volunteer occasionally to drive a week or two for drum corps tours).

As for the Montana LLC issue - I'm simply not smart enough to remember which lies I've told to who, so I have to "play it straight" to stay out of trouble! :p

[sticks]

I made up my mind about 20 minutes after my post last night that I didn't have the stomach for pursuing a Montana LLC. I planned all along to belly up to the bar and pay the sales tax , so I guess , I can sleep better at night even though my wallet will be considerably lighter. Thanks for your posts, I'm in good company

[Ray Davis]

Back on the drivers license part of the thread ....

As I understand it (I could be wrong), all states will accept the license that is required in the state that has issued the tags. IN many states you may drive an RV (as long as it's titled as an RV, not a bus) with a standard drivers license.

In CA this is true, but only up to 40 feet. Above 40 requires a Class B non-commercial license. It might as well have been a CDL, however, as my drivers test alone was 90 minutes, taken at a CDL facility, and I have to do a physical every two years, just like a CDL?

I know several people in CA who don't have a class B license and are driving rigs over 40 foot. The primary reason I went through the hassle was in case of an accident. Can you imagine if you were involved in a TA (not even your fault), and they find out that the driver of the "million dollar bus" is not licensed to drive it? I don't even want to think of what would happen in that case!

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Yes, it hurts to pay the sales tax. But since my bus, toads and driver license are all TN I don't have to worry about the efforts the states are going to mount to collect every penny they can squeeze out of the few of us that actually still pay taxes rather than collect benefits.

I have a CDL for the very reason Ray states. I don't want the hassle of defending my skills relating driving the bus questioned. Some have stated that if we possess a CDL and are stopped for an infraction that the legal system is harder on us because we are professional drivers, but I fear a lawyer who would sue me in the event of a TA being indignant because I am driving a 65 foot long vehicle with a combined weight of 53,000 pounds and do not possess proof that I passed a driver's test for such a vehicle.

[Will Garner]

Jon,

If that day comes that you go face to face with a wanna-be Perry Mason, I'm betting on your side carrying the day. The rules are simple. In your case there is no question that can be answered with a simple yes or no, not even a maybe. I am confident that you could present a seminar in response to any lawyer's question that would quite simply bowl over the jury in your favor!

I once had a lawyer badger me trying to make me out a fool in front of the judge and jury. I was not even sworn in as an expert witness. He kept asking for the conversion factor to go from miles per hour to feet per second (1.4746....). I told him that I did not commit conversion factors to memory as being an engineer I could make the calculation necessary to derive the factor. After asking 2-3 times and getting the same answer he pulled out an Engineer's field book and vigoriously pointed to a list of conversion factors and said something like, "Here it is, now do you agree the number is 1.47?! My response was to ask him had he ever run across a publishing error and further, my three previous offers to calculate the factor and carry it out to as many decimals as he so choose still stood. No more conversion factor questions.

Later that same lawyer asked me to describe how the traffic signal works. I tried to do it with as much simplicity as possible. At the end of my description he threw up his hands and said he was totally confused and did not understand a thing I said. I replied before anything else could be said, that if he did not understand how traffic signals worked that he should turn his license in to the judge and get a ride home. I glanced at the judge and he had a very large grin on his face.

The next day, after having taken time to study the intersection in question, and to reflect on that lawyer's opening statement to the jury, I called the lawyer that had called me into court, and told him that I now had a theory on what actually occurred that led to the crash. This lawyer then called the other lawyer, told him what I was now willing to testify to as an expert witness and that it was based on interest raised from his opening statement. The other side offerred a $25,000 settlement on the spot and the lawyer that had called me to court took it.

So in this specific case never give a yes, no, or even a maybe answer to a lawyer's question. This goes against my usual recommendation, which is to always just say yes or no, or I don't understand your question, could you possibly rephrase it for me so that I may understand what you are asking. Never go into detail.

With your knowledge of buses, their systems, their repair and operation you could keep the courthouse tied up for days. Why heck, maybe you could even drive your coach to the courthouse in case they wanted to go over the systems. You could even use Hector's miniature Air System Demo and then take the lawyers out to see the real thing. Just make sure all the lawyers are under the bus when you dump the air!

Later ...

[Ray Davis]

Will,

Great story, but the issue I was worried about is specifically this:

Lawyer: Mr. Davis, were you involved in a TA on ......?
Me: Yes sir.

Lawyer: So, is your vehicle licensed in CA, and over 40 foot in length?
Me: Yes sir?

Layer: Do you posses a class B or A license?
Me: No, do I need one?


At that point it's obvious that you are driving a big, expensive vehicle that you are not licensed to drive. Open pockets, dig deep.

Ray

[hobobimmer]

I made up my mind about 20 minutes after my post last night that I didn't have the stomach for pursuing a Montana LLC. I planned all along to belly up to the bar and pay the sales tax , so I guess , I can sleep better at night even though my wallet will be considerably lighter. Thanks for your posts, I'm in good company

Sticks:

I think you made very good decision. From about 20 years ago, when I worked for a department store company, we bought an airplane that became based in Tennessee. We closed the purchase of the plane in Texas, basing our decision to do that on a Texas statute which said no sales tax was due on purchase of planes in Texas which were immediately put into use in interstate commerce. Not too long after, State of Tennessee comes to us for "Use Tax," plus interest, plus penalties. I ended up getting us out of the penalties, but not the interest or tax. That was educational exercise for me.

We're all talking about "Sales Tax." It might be that you can avoid Sales Tax by putting bus in Montana LLC, but check your state's "Use Tax" law. I would not be a bit surprised that Use Tax is what you owe. I don't know that I'm right about this, but I believe I am. Below is something I pulled off the internet when I searched "Tennessee Sales and Use Tax."

Eric Faires
Huntsville, TN

State sales and use tax - Sales tax is imposed on all retail sales, leases and rentals of most goods, as well as taxable services.

Use Tax - The use tax is the counterpart to the sales tax. It is applied when merchandise (tangible personal property) is purchased from outside the state of Tennessee and imported into the state for use or consumption. The 45 states that impose a sales tax also levy a use tax.

[Ray Davis]

Good distinction Eric,

IN CA at least, it is indeed use tax that you pay for a vehicle (used) when you purchase it.

That's BOE policies. However, the DMV wants their $2000-$4000 annual plate fees if you drive and live in CA. I'm not sure of any good way to get around that one either.

Ray

ps: Yeah, our yearly plate fees are getting way out of hand in CA. I'm about ready to move ....

[chtree]

Sticks,

We just purchased our coach in early 2009 and actually started the Montana LLC process while having our atty. research the issue. He found a huge gray area and advised against not paying the sales tax, so we went ahead and registered in Pa. and paid the tax. I can sleep a lot better this way.


Good luck,

Chris

[Orren Zook]

Ray, I'll let you keep your coach in my garage - the annual state license fee in Ohio is currently $49.50 for a motor home.... individual counties or municipalities (but not both) may charge an additional fee here - in Girard it's an additional $15 a year.

[hobobimmer]

Ray, I'll let you keep your coach in my garage - the annual state license fee in Ohio is currently $49.50 for a motor home.... individual counties or municipalities (but not both) may charge an additional fee here - in Girard it's an additional $15 a year.

I just registered our bus for $24. What a deal. Same as my cars. Motorcycles only $17.

Eric Faires
Huntsville, TN

P.S. Ray, Huntsville is a really cool place to live.

[michaeldterry]

The registration renewal for Evangeline came due in October (in Georgis - the renewal date is your birthday). I had to cough up $8,000 in ad valorem taxes! :eek: :mad:

[Ray Davis]

Hmm,

Looks like Tenn or Ohio are possible next state to live in!! :D Looks like a big NO on Georgia? Boy, I hadn't heard that you guys pay that much yearly plate fees?

Too bad they are a little far away to do anything right at the moment!

[Coloradobus]

Wow, Michael Terry,

What did you plates cost you last year? I hope it was less this year.:eek:

[rfoster]

I have no experience with a Montana LLC, but I can tell you I have experience with Tennessee Sales Tax Audits. They are thorough, painful, exspensive, and really work well to make sure the taxpayer looks out for Tennessee Tax Collection efforts.

Having said that, I love Tennessee its a great state and I have no plans to move.

I am begining to accept the idea that was presented yesterday by our House Speaker and Candidate for Governor that we should succeed from the Union.

Throw the bums out!

[jack14r]

NC has property taxes which vary by county,my county is about 64 cents per 100 dollars,our annual tag cost is about $30,each state has a method of collecting money for the ownership of buses,boats,planes etc.

[truk4u]

Let's set the record straight for Georgia!

Sales Tax
Private sale in or out of state - "0"
Dealer purchase in or out of state - 6% of sale price (depending on County)

Ad Valorem Tax
Vehicle Book Value X 40% X mill rate 26.22 - 2009 Cherokee County

Vehicle Values are based book value and since Prevosts are not in the Georgia data base, the values are calculated by Bill of Sale amount.

My tag and ad valorem tax in 2009 for the Liberty was $529.46.

Michael,

If you paid $8,000.00 you must have bought from a Dealer and paid about $770,000.00 for your 1996 Featherlite!:eek: If not, hire a Lawyer and get some of your money back, you have been screwed...;)

[Will Garner]

Ray,

I agree with your response. However, that is why I went for a CDL as soon as I got my Prveost. In NC you don't qualify for a CDL - Passenger unless you seat 16+. Obviously we don't. So the highest I could get was what NC calls a "Classified B" license. You get to take the CDL question test, with 40 of 50 questions being required to pass and a road test. Now the question test was passed with, you guessed it, 40 correct answers out of 50 questions. When I came back for the road test, the lady examiner said she had NEVER given a road test in one of these! She added we might just have to go all the way to Myrtle Beach to complete the test. I told her the tank was full so let's get going. We just went around the block, stopped for a fake RxR track, made a backing move, left turns and right turns but no parallel parking!

I have always been disturbed by the States requiring a motorcycle endorsement, which I got in 1977 as soon as they were required (yes I have a story about that too) yet they allow anyone to operate an RV with a simple Class C license. Makes no sense to me but that's the way it is - wait a minute isn't that a line Walter Cronkite used to close his news casts?

Later ... oh and Merry Christmas, Happy New Year to all!

[michaeldterry]

Let's set the record straight for Georgia!

My tag and ad valorem tax in 2009 for the Liberty was $529.46.

Michael,

If you paid $8,000.00 you must have bought from a Dealer and paid about $770,000.00 for your 1996 Featherlite!:eek: If not, hire a Lawyer and get some of your money back, you have been screwed...;)

:o Tom - I misspoke! When we first registered the bus in January 2009, we had to pay the sales tax ($8,700 based on a bill of sale for $145,000). When I renewed my tags in October, the cost was somewhere between $1,500 & $1,800 for the tag fee and 2010 ad valorem taxes according to the "non-brain damaged" one in the family (Vita).

Sorry for the initial misinformation! Even so, it's still way more expensive than I'd like it to be to keep my tags current! :eek: (Still feeling "screwed" - and I didn't even get kissed!)

[truk4u]

Ok Michael, I just thought you might have got hosed!:(

No sense giving the blood suckers a dime more than required.

[ken&ellen]

When we purchased our Liberty, Ellen & I were living in VA and too decided to get my CDL only to find out that since it is an RV and not commercially registered the local truck training outfit turned me away instructing me to get the " B " endorsment which I could attain through the school system IF I was hired to drive a school bus or go to the local tour bus operators for training. But alias...the tour bus people would not train you unless you were in their employ and driving their equipment.
Since it was not required in VA at that time I just let it go. Ken

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Sometimes there are windows of opportunity. If your bus qualifies in your state as a class B, but does not require a CDL or non-commercial CDL you may be in luck if no special license to drive an RV is required.

An RV may be exempt from special licensing today so while the opportunity is available it is a cheap way to get that CDL. Take the written test. Schedule the driving test. As long as your bus is over 26,000 you can use it for the class B test. You can also get the air brake endorsement. You don't need to go to a training school or even show up with a licensed driver in the passenger seat since you are already legal to drive the bus (RV).

The CDL will not be a commercial CDL (although it could be if the state will allow it) you will get yours by passing a test in a vehicle you already know you can drive. The best reason is some insurance companies (National Interstate is one) give a discount for having the commercial license.

FWIW when I passed mine I was able to get the examiner to count seats and he came up with a number that put me in the category of getting a passenger endorsement so I now carry a "P" endorsement so if times get tough I can always drive bus for a living.

[lbriant]

I would have a problem here I belive?
I have been blind in my right eye since I was 6yrs old That took me out of allot of fields, They would not except me to serve our country, could not get a city job my Father is a retied Fire Capt, no fire or police jobs and I dont belive I could get a CDL because of the same type of Physicals you must pass,
I dont even notice it myself,
But I belive I would not Qualify for a CDL???
And I could not accept giving up my Bus its been my wife and my Dream for many years !!
Guess I will be rolling the Dice ???????

[Sid Tuls]

I sure wouldn't worry about it. It sure wouldn't keep me from traviing in my coach.

[Denny]

Larry,
You have to check what the requirements are of the state in which you are licensed in. Many states do not require any special licensing for a RV. I live in Ohio and there is not a special license requirement for a RV including a bus.

Denny

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Larry,

Even if you do live in a state which requires a CDL it will be a non-commercial CDL Class B (unless you plan on towing a trailer in excess of 10000 pounds which might require a Class A) and I don't believe a medical is required.

I don't know why that would be exclusionary on a medical anyway because pilots can fly with disabilities by demonstrating ability and getting a waiver.

[lbriant]

Thanks guy,s for the info, I have a DOT book I can get my hands on so I will check it out, If I can do somthing to help I will, if I cant I will just keep on rolling on !! I think like others on this thread, probably the only time you would have a problem is if you were involved in an accident!,,,,,

[Liam]

I bought a Prevost used in NC and found I couldn't legally drive it back to Maryland without a "Class-A Non-Commercial" per a change a few years ago. Had to take a mini-subset of the CDL written test, wait 30 days, then bring the bus in for a road-test with a graded pre-flight inspection. Road tests had a 90-day+ waiting list.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This list may help folks determine if they do need a CDL

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml

I cannot speak to its accuracy. As states continue to experience revenue crunches there is widespread opinion that they will do more to enforce their existing laws, and the best revenue sources are out of staters because they do not vote in the state's elections. This appeared to be true with stepped up efforts to collect sales taxes from owners who used the Montana laws to their benefit to avoid sales taxes. It may follow that highway enforcement is equally rewarding for states.

[Orren Zook]

FYI, new federal regulations regarding medical requirements take effect on January 30, 2012 for CDL holders, regarding interstate or intrastate certification. Complete information online at: www.fmcsa.dot.gov (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov) or 800-832-5660.

[hhoppe]

California Class B Non Commercial Drivers License is required to operate a 40 ft. not exceeding a 45 ft. " House Car ". A Physician's Health Report form 546A filled out by a physician after a physical exam must be on file at DMV and re-newed every two years. It's a good idea to take the form with you every time you get your annual checkup. I just renewed my Class B license and it required an updated 546A form, a written drivers license test, a written 40 ft.+ House Car test, a right thumb print, an eye test, $ 39.00 fee, and a picture. I was able to accomplis this at the DMV office in a record time of three days only because I had made apointments ahead. It took the gentleman over 1 1/2 hours on the phone with three seperate ladies helping him to figure out how to make the computer accomplish the task. This gave me a further understanding of why CA is going broke.

[flyu2there]

Harry,

You just posted reason number 629 that I became an Arizona resident. I tried that in California, presented them with a Valid Department of Transportation, FAA Medical which California deemed NO GOOD, probably the best for me because I would have probably flunked the written, especially after the pre-lims! AZ, if you hold a current license from another state they give you a quick eye test, snap your photo and hand you a five year license (not a temp certificate) in about ten minutes time (no appointment needed) and the total cost is 15.00!