Young 'uns LEAN Too!

[Just Plain Jeff]

Pic below is a relatively new H3-45 caught on a ride in LewLand with a definite case of the leans. For those who may have a coach which is older, don't feel as if you are being left out of the party.

Hmmmm.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jeff, that kinda looks like a character from one of Ray's movies.
What's up with all that drivin around, didn't anyone invite you in:confused:.
Sounds kinda sad to be all alone on a festive family type holiday. Hope you find a party.
:)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Now that I am deep in the middle of changing all my Norgrens I am developing a very complete understanding of how MY (caps for emphasis) coach suspension system works. I am assuming most coaches are the same within certain generations. I know for sure my 87 was not like my 97 so there are differences.

Assuming his H3 is like my Liberty XL there are only three places to look to solve a lean as shown. Verify the air bags on the left rear are not leaking (3 places), check the 5 port valve on the forward bulk head in front of the drive axle, or check the 3 port valve on the side frame above and between the tag and drive axle. What used to be a mystery to me is now less so, and I will be happy to expand upon the seminar on the leans Bill Jensen and I did in Branson in both Sevierville and Pahrump.

One thing is certain as JPJ alludes to, sooner or later every coach will have the leans.

[VegasDogMan]

Jon:

We're wintering in Florida and ever since we left Vegas our coach too has the leans. If I pull into a fuels stop and driveway tilts to the left, I loose air in the rear suspension. Mud flap dragging on ground. As long as engine is running it's ok.

When I pull into campground, level the coach I'm level for about 2 days then the left rear drops again.

Where do I start looking? No pit - where do I go for some knowlegeable repairs? Is your pit nearby Ocala Fl?

Lee

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Maybe Dale has his pit ready for the FL area members.

Lee, My 97 valve system differs from my 87 so I am in no position to pinpoint the potential sources other than to make some general comments because I know Liberty or Prevost has changed at some point.

Assuming your RH side is OK, and the front is not dropping the problem is at least isolated to the tag and 2 drive axle air bags or the valves dedicated to that LH side.

If you know your air bags are OK (good luck proving that short of inflating them and praying if they have a leak it is where you can see soap bubbles) the remaining probable source is the five port Norgren valve on that side. I am in the middle of replacing the four Norgrens that are in my steer compartment, and I know the two on the rear bulkhead are dedicated to the front, but the two solenoid operated valves that appear to be a Liberty install also have something to do with holding air pressure in the front and rear, or maybe just dumping air pressure. I am still checking.

If you intend to try to play with this yourself, you do need to be under the coach, and if you get under it, make certain it is supported. Right now my bet is on the five port valve in the left rear, or one of the three air bags.

[VegasDogMan]

Jon:
are there three bags on each side in the rear?

2 on Axle and one on Tag?

Lee

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lee,

Yes, on all coaches regardless of converter the drive has two air bags per side and the tag a single air bag per side.

Under normal conditions, such as when parked or when driving the three are tied together and air flows to and from them simultaneously. When the tag is lifted, or in the case of a 45 when air in the tag is dumped a three port Norgren located high between the tag and drive axles closes to isolate the tag air bags from the drive air bags.

Other than that the three air bags per side in the rear operate as a unit.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lee,

I found this photo that may be of interest....

It shows the three air bags on the rear passenger side on my bus. One is in front of the front fender liner which has been removed in this photo. The other two are easily visible with the tag wheel removed. What most are unaware of is that in the rear of our coaches we have three shocks per side, with one being in front of the front fender liner next to the air bag.

[dale farley]

Jon, I'm still working on the pit. The weather has not been very cooperative for the last few days, and now it is scheduled to turn cold for a couple weeks. The picture shows where I am at this point. I just need to install a couple more expansion joints and lay in the wire, and I will be ready to pour. Maybe I will finish by Spring. Well, I see for some reason, the picture won't post. How come you can post a picture, and I can't?

[dale farley]

Hopefully the picture is attached to this one.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Dale, looks real nice so far.
Hope you are going to put vertical re-bar through all the blocks and fill them with concrete!! IMHO you need the strength so as not to have the walls cave in from hydraulic pressure and the weight adjacent to it on the floor. If you can get your hands on a vibrator :) the job will be a piece of cake.

Just wondering after you fill the block are you going to form up/out the pit upper edge for heavy planks as a cover? Just a safety thing or when you move etc..

[dale farley]

I am filling all the blocks with concrete but don't intend to put rebar in every block. After the cave-in, I intentionally did not backfill around the pit with the red dirt all the way to the top. I intend to have a significant amount of extra concrete around the pit. There will be about 12" of concrete beside and on top of the blocks.

I had rebar coming up from the bottom that ties the blocks to the foor of the pit. With the blocks full of concrete, 12"-18" of concrete at the top and sides of the pit, the rebar that I have going down and wire on both sides, I don't think the blocks will go anywhere. I suppose I could add more rebar, but I haven't decided to at this point. I don't plan to form for a board floor.

[truk4u]

Nice job Dale....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale, that looks great. You are going to have a new business when it is done.

[jelmore]

Under normal conditions, such as when parked or when driving the three are tied together and air flows to and from them simultaneously. When the tag is lifted, or in the case of a 45 when air in the tag is dumped a three port Norgren located high between the tag and drive axles closes to isolate the tag air bags from the drive air bags.

I've wondered about what happens when the tag is lifted. If I have the bus aired up (for unlevel ground, etc.) and raise the tag, the rear end sinks. Is this normal?

[dalej]

Jim, yes this is normal. You have to think of air bags holding up your bus, when you take two away you have 4 left to hold up the rear which amounts to around 28000 on mine, most are more with 45 foot coachs.

[jelmore]

Jon Wehrenberg had said "...a three port Norgren located high between the tag and drive axles closes to isolate the tag air bags from the drive air bags." I thought that might keep the rear end from dropping. Made me wonder.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

If your bus is running it will initially drop but should eventually come back up to ride height.

If the bus is not running it might or might not not have enough air tank capacity to completely bring it back, and only with the key switched on.

If it is not coming back up running, you could have something going on.

Anytime the ride height is low the ride height valves should allow air in the drive bags, when running. Takes a minute or so for ours to come back up to normal height.

The 40's are a true lift and the tag tires will clear the ground, when the drive bags come back up. The 45's are just a "dump valve" on the tag, the air will exhaust but the tires remain on the ground.

Unless you have that fancy air over shock set-up, then it should remain at height when you dump the tag.

[dalej]

Keep in mind that at 120 pounds of air pressure from the system, if you over load the air bags it won't raise the bus like you think. Think of when you raise the tag to lift the front, the front doesn't want to go up because of the added weight the converter adds. Some bus's don't go up much past road height because it is working against the tag.

When you have a trailer behind and want to raise the tag, you will more then likely see a big drop in the back end. The air bags just don't handle the added weight. Your leveling valves are calling for air but with 120 pounds it just won't bring it up.

[truk4u]

My 45 sinks and does not come up to normal ride height when running with the tag lifted. It gets close, but doesn't make it. Given enough time, the tag will just begin to lift off the ground. On my 40 Marathon, the tag would lift off the ground pretty quick and keep the tires up about 2".

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The issue about the rear sinking when the tag is lifted is all about the weight on the tag axle being shifted to the drive axle, plus a little of the weight from the front axle because the pivot point has changed with the tag lifted.

My old coach would eventually get to normal ride height. My 45 footer has stabilisators (Prevost word) so I have never tried it.