Smart car as toad

[RDHoyum]

Any members have or are interested in the new Smart car coming to US in 2008?

I've got a reservation on one and awaiting the order confirmation process. Happy to discuss.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Welcome to the group Sharon and Randy. Merry Christmas to you as well and Happy Holidays to all POGers.

Here's a link to some posts on what I think your talking about. Scroll down until you get to the photo.

http://forum.prevostownersgroup.com/showthread.php?p=19107#post19107

[Petervs]

I see no reason you would want to TOW a Smart car. If you tow you can not back up, and you have to drive trailer towing speeds which in some states is lower than for just a single vehicle, and in some states you can not drive in the left lane with a trailer.

I think this is the better answer.
And yes, I know the Smart lift is not quite finished, it still needs paint, lights, and a few other small things, bit you get the idea from the picture.

As a secondary feature, I can still access the regular trailer hitch with this lift in case I want to tow a second car in the regular way, although I see no need for that. It would just require a hitch extension. Other features incorporated into this lift are that the whole thing only weighs about 300 pounds plus the Smart at 1600 pounds; no bus axle weights are exceeded.

With the lift in the down position, you can open the bus engine doors normally for service access. The whole lift can be removed in about a half hour making the bus stock again, and the platform folds up when the car is not on it so it does not stick out when empty. No welding on the bus was required, and the entire rear bumper can still be removed in the event engine removal is ever necessary.

[Jim_Scoggins]

Randy:
I fooled around with the smart car in Nova Scotia. The one that really interested me was the Diesel--significantly higher MPG than the gasser.
Smart car is mum on if and when the diesel will be brought to the US. I will get one if they do: If it is towable four down with an auto tranny. I saw your recent post where Smart says four down towing is OK

The owner of the camp ground I was staying in had one--thought it was electric at first. His documentation showed 72 MPG in all uses but one can presume it was mostly surburbia use.

[Petervs]

My Smart is a diesel. It is a 2002 model.

I drove most of one entire tank of fuel ( 5.5 gallons!) on the freeway at 75 mph one day and got 59.5 mpg. Around town is less, but on the hwy at 55 to 60 mpg would be more I think.

I have been considering putting a label of some kind on the back of my lift frame, something between the soon to be installed taillights. I am open to suggestions.

One I have considered is: These vehicles average 35 MPG

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Go with that it's perfect:D

[BrianE]

And just when can we buy one Peter? Or more to the point, when can you deliver one? :D

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I know a golf cart would get up there no problem. Or a couple of quads or jet skies or a bike or whatever. And then a small toad in tow 4 down would make a great solution for many folks with this scenario.

What you have done is already out there accept none have the same mount transferring the load better as yours is and no one has done one that large. Although you have a significant amount of load on it with that car up there if it were used for almost anything else the load would be significantly reduced from capacity compared to current bike lifts that would be at their limits doing the same thing.

I'll betcha you have a pretty nice set of drawings for it layin around.

Peter anyone out there (with a prevo considering your design) that has been, or currently, considering a BIKE LIFT should be beating a path to your door.
Your design has eliminated all of the issues with everything currently on the market plus it's way more capacity. One could use that platform for anything, within weight limitations, and still pull a smaller toad with no more stress on the bus than pulling a full-size 4WD P-U.

The more I look at your handy work the more I like it. What a conversation piece. What a cool tool. Why is it taking so long for the paint and lights? Waiting on a patten?:D

How long is that little car, 100 inches even?

[Petervs]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the kind words.

The Smart is 102 inches long. The weight is almost perfectly evenly distributed over the four wheels, but the rear wheels sit closer to the rearmost part of the car than the fronts to the front, so the weight is biased toward the rear a little.

Why is it taking so long?...well, life gets in the way. We have been traveling on our boat, I am building an airplane, and family matters seem to butt in there from time to time as well. Plus, it is no fun working on it in the rain outside my shop. The bus is too tall to fit in there. And if I go to the hangar where I store the bus, well, then all the tools and such are not there. So I am procrastinating until the weather is a bit nicer. A poor excuse but I am sticking to it.

The other thing I kinda like about it, is you can only do this on a Prevost. Because of the internal structure of the bus you can carry the loads easily. It seems like a cool way to set the bus folks apart from the Winnebagos.

[Petervs]

Correction, The bus is 102 inches wide. The Smart is 98 inches long. Sorry about added confusion.

[gmcbuffalo]

The newer Smarts are 10 CM longer and I don't know if there is a weight change with the roomier 10 CM's. I definety want to get one.
GregM

[dalej]

3.937 inches for those that don't like metric.

[lewpopp]

For those who don't like metric or do not know metric?

[RDHoyum]

My apologies for not staying with the discussion! I fell ill just after Christmas and only came back to work this past week. I've confirmed my smart car order, just awaiting notice of expected delivery timeframe.

I also just saw the planned mini-rally at Rancho next week and will be traveling there to meet some new faces.

Peter, since you have a smart we'll have even more to discuss. Can't wait.

[bluevost]

Randy,

Looking forward to meeting you too. What day do you plan to arrive? I will be pulling in there tomorrow late afternoon.

Ken

[flyu2there]

I too just "reserved" a Smart Car...now that a few folks have them are you towing them or carrying them in the papoose?

John

[RDHoyum]

If you just now reserved, it'll be 2009...or later before yours is available. The '08 production allotment is sold out.

If you really want one, spend some time at your dealer and get on their "orphan" list(s). Let them know you're very interested and it's likely they'll give you some calls when they have unclaimed(orphans) available.

I ordered/reserved in May '07 and my vehicle has not yet arrived. However, I was diligent at the dealer and got one on May 12th, 2008.

Have not yet set it up for towing, but plan to. Blue Ox has a tow bar mount available and the car still looks nice when modified.

I tried to get a link from the www.smartcarofamerica.com web forum, but it seems to be not working at the time. Check under the "towing" section to find some discussion and photos of a smart set-up for towing.

Happy to discuss the smart car with anyone interested.

[tdelorme]

I did the $100 reserve a car deal on 08/08/2007 and they still say my arrive date is early 2009. Hard to do much about it when the closest dealer is 200 miles away but the orphan deal sounds interesting so I'll call them again. Thanks for the idea.

[flyu2there]

So guys, tell me on the Orphan List is there a dealer "pack"? I have been down this road before when dealers will take a car that they feel is going to be a hot seller and add 5 grand and then have the balz to tag it "additional dealer profit".

I have also noticed a number of dealers and private parties who have Smart Cars listed with basically zero miles....not un common to see between 18 and 22 k for the ask. They are all over the internet if you want to have a look...Google "Smart Cars For Sale" and prepare yourself for a shock.

I'll wait til 2009 when supply catches up to the demand...maybe sooner in this economy!

John

[flyu2there]

Randy,

Found the link...web site is sure familiar. Now for the link within the link
http://www.motorhomemagazine.com/output.cfm?id=1559053

Looks like there is a hellava backlog as mentioned earlier, Smart claims 50,000 reservations for the US Market alone, not to mention the 36 other countries!

I think it will be one great toad considering it weighs a scant 1800 pounds, too bad there is no diesel for the US market.

Little known fact...Smart Car was founded by the people who produced the Swatch...remember those; subsequently sold to Daimler-Benz....

John

[RDHoyum]

So guys, tell me on the Orphan List is there a dealer "pack"? I have been down this road before when dealers will take a car that they feel is going to be a hot seller and add 5 grand and then have the balz to tag it "additional dealer profit".

I have also noticed a number of dealers and private parties who have Smart Cars listed with basically zero miles....not un common to see between 18 and 22 k for the ask. They are all over the internet if you want to have a look...Google "Smart Cars For Sale" and prepare yourself for a shock.

I'll wait til 2009 when supply catches up to the demand...maybe sooner in this economy!

John

Those shinanigans seemed to have calmed down after the first month or so after the release in Jan.
My local Mercedes dealer, the only Arizona smart dealer, does add Lojack and window tint to every orphan. It added almost $1000 to price, but still a good deal in my mind. I would have done the "Huper optic" tint anyways.

I got a loaded passion(comfort package and top stereo), with dealer add-ons for a little over $16K.

Randy

[RDHoyum]

I did the $100 reserve a car deal on 08/08/2007 and they still say my arrive date is early 2009. Hard to do much about it when the closest dealer is 200 miles away but the orphan deal sounds interesting so I'll call them again. Thanks for the idea.


Keep calling them and, if you're willing, let them know you'll take what ever color they have available. Remember, you can always change the panels for another color.

I had two calls from my dealer when I was heading out to and while at the Pahrump rally. The last call got me the one I wanted. Gave credit card to hold until I got home and signed the papers.

Randy

[0533]

I see no reason you would want to TOW a Smart car. If you tow you can not back up, and you have to drive trailer towing speeds which in some states is lower than for just a single vehicle, and in some states you can not drive in the left lane with a trailer.

I think this is the better answer.
And yes, I know the Smart lift is not quite finished, it still needs paint, lights, and a few other small things, bit you get the idea from the picture.

As a secondary feature, I can still access the regular trailer hitch with this lift in case I want to tow a second car in the regular way, although I see no need for that. It would just require a hitch extension. Other features incorporated into this lift are that the whole thing only weighs about 300 pounds plus the Smart at 1600 pounds; no bus axle weights are exceeded.

With the lift in the down position, you can open the bus engine doors normally for service access. The whole lift can be removed in about a half hour making the bus stock again, and the platform folds up when the car is not on it so it does not stick out when empty. No welding on the bus was required, and the entire rear bumper can still be removed in the event engine removal is ever necessary.
Hello Peter,

I am considering a smart car and have one reserved from a private sale. My question for you is about the lift you have constructed. 1. How does the bus handle with the extra weight on the back?? 2. have you considered adding a wheel that can rotate 360 degrees on the center rear of the lift, maybe mounted on a strut to take some weight off the back end and keep the lift from bouncing, or is this not a factor??? 3. How does the Smart get on and off?? Ramp, if so where do you store them etc??? 4. How is the lift attached to the frame, welded to the frame etc.

Thanks.

[Petervs]

Hi Bruce,

Randy Hoyum recently asked me similar questions about the Smart lift.

First off, I think this thread needs a new name. My device eliminates TOWING so the Smart Car would not be called a TOAD. Rather, the bus carries the Smart, so I think the thread should be renamed "Smart Car as PARASITE!"

From my recent response to Randy after he asked me how to get one on the back of his bus:

OK, so I wish my lift was all done, and had a few thousand trouble free road miles behind it, and maybe I had a company here somewhere you could go and buy one, they would install it on your bus and you would drive away happy after leaving them a check.

Alas, that is not the world we live in. My lift is nearly done. I think a day or two to finish a few minor things, then a day or two to disassemble it and paint everything, then install lights and I am done. Sounds easy. And since I am basically retired, it should be.

So how do we get a lift on the back of your bus?

To answer your direct question, I do not have engineering drawings. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, but spent my career in sales, letting others build and design stuff I sold. But this was a do it myself project. I designed it as I built it as I went along. Rebuilt a few parts a few times until it worked. If you took this one to a fab shop and said "copy it", they could probably do that, but it would not be cheap, and it would be hard to incorporate improvements I would make if I were to do it again.

I did hire a friend to help me build it originally. It just goes much more efficiently when you have two people to measure, cut, weld, and kick ideas around as you invent this thing. I estimate we have 200 man hours labor in it, and about $1500 in materials. Mostly steel, a winch, and LED lights.

My design was inspired by seeing the lawn turf delivery trucks carrying their forklifts on the back of the sod trailers. I studied liftgates also, but most have a lot of hardware mounted under the frame where we have the engine in the bus, or they have a huge vertical steel angle alongside the trailer door frames, where we have our taillights. Neither design was light weight either.

Review of my design goals:
1. Quick and easy to operate. Needs to be almost as easy to use as a tow bar hookup.
2. Preserve bus, so when lift is removed the bus looks original
3. Can open bus engine doors with lift installed .
4. Entire lift can be removed in 30-45 minutes in case of major engine work
5. Strong and dependable enough to not cause any problems on a trip
6. Light enough to be practical. The entire thing weighs under 500 pounds, and the lifted part is less than 200. The car is 1625. The grand total is easily managed by the Prevost.
7. Outer part folds up when the car is off, to reduce overall length in a campground.
8. Will not scrape the ground when driving through a dip.
9. No loose parts while loading, and no tools needed.


So, to answer your specific questions:
1. There is no welding on the bus.
2. There are NO loose parts, no separate ramps. The ramps are attached and fold up to become wheel chocks. Can car drive on or off either side depending on where and how the bus is situated.
3. I do not want or need a swiveling wheel under there. The whole thing is quite stable. Any wheel there would need a huge suspension travel to be able to deal with dips in the road and driveways. There is simply no need for it.
4. While driving the bus you do not even know the car is back there except you can see the roof of it in the rear view camera. Running lights on the sides at the extreme rear corners so you can see it at night.


OK, here are a couple of serious issues that need your attention:

1. The new Smart cars sold here are a bit longer than mine. Mine is a Euro version , 2002, and is less than 100 inches long . The bus is 102 without the side mirrors and awnings. The new Smarts selling here are a little longer.

2. On a 45 foot coach, hang the car back there and you will be 50 feet long overall. What will the police say about that? Nothing I hope. My approach is to just do it. If you were towing the length would be legal right? Truck trailers are commonly 53 feet.

What happens next?
I hope to finish mine up soon. It needs paint and lights and a few other minor adjustments. Maybe I will make it to POG in SD. We will see.

[Petervs]

Bruce,

I forgot to answer your question about the weight back there. It is a non issue.

Consider a charter bus full of people.. Imagine 10 people from the from rows all walking to the very back of the bus to get in line for the bathroom, or whatever. That is the same weight as we are talking here. It would have no effect. Yes, the Smart is a little farther back, but you get the idea.

Also, it reduces the weight on the front axle by about 800 pounds. This is good.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter has a brilliant idea and maybe at Spearfish he will do a seminar so folks that are inclined to create a lift like his can make sketches so they can have their own fabricated.

For those buying a Smart car (or who tow a Mini like Roger) I would strongly support the concept of what Peter is doing. If a vehicle that small and light develops a problem like a failed tire or wheel bearing, or even is accidently left in gear I can assure you that the bus will drag the vehicle up the highway and you will never realize there is a problem. I can envision all four wheels, brake discs, and the entire suspension being ground down to the point where the floor pan has been ground away to nothing and you will never feel a thing in the coach.

I do have a concern about axle weights. If Peter has a typical Marathon his weight bias without the car on the rear is towards the front axle with the rear axles lightly loaded. My coach has the weight biased towards the rear, so if I were to cantilever approximately 1600 pounds off the rear of the coach I would be unloading a relatively lightly loaded front axle, and possibly exceeding my drive and tag axle limits. I think each coach has different axle weights which need to be considered before embarking on such a project.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

BTW,

Peter would have had the lift completed by now if he had not been seeding other people's lawns and then doing aerial photography of his work.

The preceding message was paid for by the Brian Esler campaign to eradicate moles.

[MangoMike]

2902

Right on the money Jon.

[jack14r]

Jon,My 2001 Marathon was at the weight limit on the tag and if I remember the drive was within 700-800 pounds of the limit.Maybe JDUB can verify my numbers.

[flyu2there]

Hold the phone here!

My bus, like everyone elses to one degee or another left Prevost as a shell weighing in at a shade under 29,000 lbs. Now when Country Coach finished with it, the weight had migrated to a titch under 40,000 lbs.

A seated bus probably weighs in at the mid 30 range....say 35k with seats and an out house. The peeps weigh 160 lbs average or less and a big assumption is that they are all carrying 20 lbs of luggage...............still, with a full house, less than what my coach weighed when Country finished the conversion. (that's an FAA approved weight used by major airlines)

These conversions are much heavier than seated busses so to toss an increased axle load...well, simply put, that's no bueno! It is false logic to asume that a handful of folks seated in the arse end of a seated bus are heavier than what the average conversion is carrying....I'll tow...Thank You!!

John

[BrianE]

Mike, I know a very reliable witch who can turn troublesome little boys into molepersons and distance isn't a problem. DIG? :eek:

[BrianE]

Hold the phone here!
These conversions are much heavier than seated busses so to toss an increased axle load...well, simply put, that's no bueno! It is false logic to asume that a handful of folks seated in the arse end of a seated bus are heavier than what the average conversion is carrying....I'll tow...Thank You!!

John

John, I agree. As Peter so aptly pointed out in another thread:

To answer your direct question, I do not have engineering drawings. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, but spent my career in sales, letting others build and design stuff I sold. :D