Winter Fuel blends and additives

[Joe Cannarozzi]

What exactly is Blended Fuel? Is it an industry standard or simply a loosely used term?

I have always assumed it was #2 diesel cut with #1 diesel, to some degree, plus maybe some anti-jelling/waxing agents?

I have seen guys put 10 gal of #1 on top of 90 gal. of blended diesel when it gets reeeeeeeeel cold to keep from jellin.

Does kero contain this quality or is this superstition?

Some say additives you put in yourself are a waste of money they are already in blended fuel, fact or fiction?

I having gelled up more than once over the years, practice all of the above.
The additives used according to recommendations adds a nickle a gallon. If kero(#1fuel) is as good, at least your getting something to burn and get some miles out of.

The additive I purchased the other day was 14 bucks, treated 250 gal. but was just over a quart in volume. For the same cash I could have got 4 gal of #1 fuel and that is another 25 miles further down the road I'll get on that.

I also have this idea that because of our bus engines in the rear and the tanks shielded as they are that it would have to get wicked cold before you would jell up with good fuel.

Anyone ever jelled up a fuel system on their bus, going down the road?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We came from FL to West VA on our way home to Panama NY. When we stopped for the night in Hurricane WV it was minus 21. We had GA fuel in the tanks but I don't know what blend it was being from just north of FL.

I did not dare shut it down so we left it on fast idle all night. When we were ready to go next morning it was minus 26. All the way up to western NY the warmest it got was minus 21. We had every heat source on in the coach and still froze due to the wind chill factor of a bus running at 50 MPH (fastest we could go due to potholes in the hard packed snow on the roads) and sub zero temps on the windshield.

We had to have passed over a 1000 trucks along the side of the road with gelled fuel. We encountered 2 or 3 per mile. The bus kept running and we never had a problem. The difference I think was our fuel tanks are surrounded by our bays, some of which are heated. The engine was an 8V92.

[ajhaig]

At what temperature should the engine block heater be used and how long should it be on before the motor is started?

Would it be safe to turn the block heater on before going to bed if you are starting the bus in the morning?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

AJ,

That's kind of a trick question because too many factors influence the answer. If the temp is 32 an 8V92 will start without the block heater, but it will be a little cranky and it will puff out white unburned fuel until all cylinders start to fire. That is an engine that has not run the previous day and is cold soaked. If you just shut that engine off 12 hours before it will likely start up almost like normal.

If it gets down to 20 and the engine is cold soaked you need the block heater. How long depends on if it is windy, and if the engine had run the previous day. I would run the block heater about 3 hours on a cold soaked engine in 20 degree temps.

If it is 10 above zero I would probably have the block heater on all night. It is safe to run all night.

If you have Webasto that will keep your engine at operating temperature without the use of a block heater. I don't know about Espar or Aquahot because I am not sure how they are plumbed.

[Jim_Scoggins]

AJ:
Regarding the gelling. I use Howes as an additive. Why? I don't know other than a good friend of mine ran a trucking company for 35 years out of MI. He used Howes as a matter of course in his fleet. Snake oil? Maybe. But I have never had fuel or starting issues. In fairness, I have never operated in the really cold temperature Jon described.


Pre heating. One sorta figures it out for your particular engine. If you get white smoke on start you probably should have pre heated. On my 8V it would puff white smoke at around 35 degrees so at those temps I would electrically pre heat for an hour.

Really cold, for VA, 18 degrees, two hours of electrical pre heat always worked. Probably overkill.

I know a guy in Alaska that regularly camps out in Alaska--he is camped out now--with a webasto problem. I'll run some of this by him and see what he says.

[Jim_Scoggins]

Joe, for your info:
Here is an answer from one of the Bluebird guys who lives and camps in Alaska:


From what I have seen blended fuel is #2 diluted with #1. In Anchorage most
of the stations simply switch from #2 to #1 toward the end of October. In
Tok I have seen them also list 'Arctic Blend' which I believe has more low
temp additives because Tok itself is a lot cooler than Anchorage and trucks
going through there may run all the way to the slope where it can be 70
below. Of course Tok is not all that warm. -20 and 30 is common and -50 is
not unknown. Since Anchorage is only 300 miles from Fairbanks or Tok the
dealers have to expect vehicles with their fuel will go into colder weather
and carry appropriate products.



I have not had a gelling problem, but, I do put additives with anti-gel
stuff in them in the fuel. Gelling can be a problem. One mechanic I know
had to go out every time a truck 'froze' up on the way up to Fairbanks. He
swore by Diesel 911 which is used after the fuel has gelled and stopped the
vehicle. I just recently saw 911 for sale in WalMart. From what I could
determine 911 is made by the same folks who produce the Diesel Kleen and
Cetane boosters sold in WalMart and their diesel additives (96 ounces
recommended for 150 gals in winter and 300 gals in summer) contain some
'911'.



I may be wasting my money putting this stuff in the fuel, but, I do know
gelling can happen and if it does I will spend a lot more getting going than
I spend on the additives. Once it warms up and we go to #2 I just use ATF
which is supposed to help keep injectors clean.



When we are on the road in winter the last thing we want is to 'freeze (or
gel) up' so I try to err on the cautious side. At first it was difficult to
look at a jug of additive that cost $15 or so until I realized that I was
adding it to $600 worth of fuel. As long as I can afford to drive the Bird
I just pour the stuff in so I can (hopefully) go out and have fun without
worrying about gelling etc.



People used to ask how I could justify having a Helio Courier which cost
more to buy, maintain and fly than a Super Cub (and I really couldn't
'afford' either one. I told them I didn't justify it. I just did it as
long as I could and had a hell of a lot of fun. It was good training for
owning a Blue Bird. We have a hell of a lot of fun with it and no one in
their right mind would say we can afford something that takes a $600 fill up
and has a $17,000 transmission. Speaking of fun in the Blue Bird, if anyone
wants to see a few of my eagle pics from our Haines trip let me know and
I'll send you some. Since they are not directly related to Blue Birds,
other than ours is base camp when we go after them, I'm not posting them on
the forum.



Jim Magowan

90 SP

Anchorage AK

[Just Plain Jeff]

Jim:

You're right about the possibility of gel in the diesel. When we sold our Angola to a guy in Wisconsin, we went through the whole deal about storing the coach properly, getting winter blend fuel, keeping it out of the worst of the winter (at least).

After listening to my endless yakking, he drove it from FL to Wisconsin, didn't do a thing we suggested and backed it into a snowbank and left it there for a week in sub-freezing temperature.

The lines gelled, batteries were zapped, etc.

Cost him $14K to get it back together in the Spring.

I may not know much about the icky underside of campers, but there are some common sense things owners need to heed or else it's the Secret Handshake all over again.

[wrongagain]

Stanadyne has a bunch of products but this is the one I have used in all my diesels for years and years.
I also carry a couple cans of the diesel 911, just in case things go wrong.

http://www.dieselmanor.com/stanadyne/perf_form.asp

[Joe Cannarozzi]

So Jon has shown us you can run in 26 below without jellin, but it may have been a bit warmer at the Westin.

And Jims friend in Alaska has confirmed that adding additional #1 to fuel that is already a winter blend does not harm and is in fact helpful.

From the first part of that note he mentions the fuel stops just switch to #1 late in the year.

That is news to me, I would have never even considered running a diesel on strait #1 fuel, very interesting.

I have seen and used 911 along with many others.

Thanks everyone, Orren what say you. I'm gonna have to lasso a tanker driver and see what I can learn about %'s of the blend.

Truckin, in the very cold, I have jelled with fuel that was more than sufficiently treated. When you notice jelling at the early stage and stop and add treatment, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. I think its due to the particular vehicle and its configuration, as much as anything else.

[truk4u]

Joe,

Back when Truk was a puppy, we had a 1000 gallon tank for heating oil, #1, for the shop. Used to pump it right out of that tank into the 2 trucks I had cause it was great for upstate NY winters and the fuel was much cheaper. Even back then when fuel was probably .40 a gallon, had to do whatever it took to try to make a living. Nothin much has changed except the fuel price.:rolleyes:

[Orren Zook]

Joe,

In the winter months we used to get diesel supreme from the Standard Oil distributor and had good luck during the winter months. In the last few years (since BP, Amoco,TA and Petro have been rolled up) here we've had our decent service with Shell diesel during the winter months and even without additional additives it seemed to get better economy and no jelling.
I've seen kerosene added to already blended fuel and even have customers that will add gasoline(small amounts maybe 5 gallons a side) to their fuel when the temps drop to -20F and stay there for a while. Trukster - isn't #1 and kero the same (without road use tax, of course) in the 70's many owners of 238/318's ran either without many problems, as fueling options were mostly limited to the main highways.
Personally I like Power Service products and use their cetane boost / conditioner year around and anti gel when I'm north of the Mason-Dixon in the winter months. Fuel quality sure isn't what it used to be! I park my camper in a heated garage during the winter months, so I probably don't really need the anti-gel as the return line temp and coach heaters should keep the fuel warm enough not to jell up when travelling - as related in Jon's experience.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Thanks for the reply Orren, everyone actually.

I used some gas once after jelling had already begun and the motor was running normal again by the time I paid.

I did not feel real comfortable doing that.

I think #1 (kero) is the best value for the money as far as additives cause your getting volume to burn and turn into additional miles and after what I have learned from Truk and Jims Alaskan friend I'm gonna experiment with a little more than before, like 20% instead of 10%.