Inverter Problem.....I think ??

[blacklab]

On my '95 Royale we used to be able to run the front roof air and/or the microwave off the inverters. 2X 2500 Heart. On our last trip when we were not running the gen, the microwave wasn't powered up while running off inverter power. The batteries were '01 vintage so I bought & installed new AGM's. Still no power to microwave or roof air, but everything else works as it should (I think). I noticed that the converter charger wasn't working/humming as usual so I checked the outlet it was plugged into & it had no power to it. No blown fuses either. So I plugged it to extention cord and it is now working. After 4 days of charging, still no inverter power to microwave. Where do I start??

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Blacklab....

This is a generalization because I am not familiar with how Royale wired its inverters. Heart has as many as 9 ways to install the inverters so I will speculate a little. First, the facts, then the guesses.

Your inverters need a circuit of 120 VAC to power them. You do not say what specific model you have for inverters, but regardless there is going to be one input, or two. The inverter input(s) need power so verify the breaker to the inverter has not tripped, and then verify you have power to the inverter input(s) at the inverter.

If the inverter has dual inputs one may be labeled transfer and the other charger. If it has a single input it will be labeled as such.

Verify the circuit breakers at the inverter face have not popped.

If you have power to the inverter, and the breakers have not tripped you should have power to the inverter output. Verify that. If you do not have power out, but have power in the inverter is not functioning as an inverter. Check the DC voltage at the house batteries to see if the inverter charger is functioning. If the charger is functioning you should have at least 13 VDC (26VDC) with no load, and likely a higher voltage. Less than that the inverter charger is not working.

If you have two inverters the probability that both have simultaneously failed is slim. If all but only one circuit has failed focus on that single circuit. Has the breaker tripped. Does the microwave have a GFCI receptacle that has tripped? Is there a fused protection at the microwave, such as in the rear of it?

If the inverters are working you will hear a hum, you will likely hear the cooling fans cycle on and off, they will feel a little warm, and you will have power in and out. If that all checks out on both inverters the problem lies elsewhere.

If you can get more specific it might be possible to zero in on the specific issue.

[Jerry Winchester]

I'll bet it is a ground problem.

[blacklab]

I have no AC output on the #2 inverter, so i'm thinking that #2 would power the items not getting power now. BTW, the converter charger reads 28.91 volts. Should I replace both inverters? They are original to the coach.

[dalej]

I would move slowly on this, two new inverters is not considered a small fix, $$$.

I would check to see if you have a transfer switch, its a small 5 x 5 inch or so box that switches A/C and inverter power to the house. I have lost two in 9 years, so I would check little things first before starting to replace things to find the problem.

[blacklab]

Any Royale owners out there know where to look for this?

[dalej]

When you plug your coach into 120v do you hear a relay type sound in the electrial bay? If in your electrial bay you have a 220 breaker marked shore power, turn it off and listen, then turn it back on and listen, you should be hearing the tranfer switch moving from inverter power to shore power.

[blacklab]

Yes, the transfer switches are working. The more I think of my problem, i'm associating the non-working receptacles and appliances with my one inverter not working. I just assumed that to power up the roof air and/or microwave a guy would need two. It seems that just one 2500 watt inverter is wired to handle the bigger draw items. I'm just thinkn' here.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Blacklab.

Your question is timely because I just finished an article on installing an inverter by-pass in case an inverter fails. Go to the POG site and look under Articles. It is the first one listed.

To diagnose your problem let's get specific. Do you have power to the inverter you think has failed? If not, check the breaker supplying power to it. Also, check the circuit breakers on the front of the inverter to make sure they are not tripped.

At the voltage DC that you specified one or both inverters appear to be charging. Lets not worry about that now.

If you are getting power to the inverter, and the breaker CB's are not tripped, are you getting power on the inverter output? If not then all the circuits powered through the inverter should be without power. It sounds like that is the case.

You cannot assume if one inverter fails, the other will pick up and handle the load. Each inverter has circuits it alone handles, and when shore or generator power is available a transfer switch internal to the inverter closes and supplies power to those circuits, while also activating the internal battery charger. I do not know how Royale set up your inverters, but it sounds like there is no automatic by-pass for a failed inverter.

Let's assume you determine there is no power output through the inverter. Turn off the other inverter to determine if the batteries are receiving a charge through the inverter that has failed. If so it is likely the transfer switch portion of the inverter has failed and you can replace the board or the inverter. We can talk about that once you check some more. Replacing the board is very cheap compared to a new inverter and is not difficult to do. The article also will give you some insight, and you may wish to consider a by-pass switch or for the moment connect the input and output wires to power the circuits you lost.

[Jerry Winchester]

The relay for my Royale was in the plumbing bay where the shore power cord hooked up. And it had a breaker right there, so that had caused me some problems.

You should also be able to use a VOM to read the inverter input and output voltages as I think the connections are all on the bulkhead to the left of the inverter. Our Royale also had a big honkin fuse right there for surge protection.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Blacklab needs to test power directly at the inverter inputs and outputs. If none is present he can work backwards from there, but if the transfer relay for the coach is closing and providing power to one inverter, my money right now is on a failed inverter internal transfer switch, not to be confused with the coach transfer switch.

[blacklab]

A buddy of mine is on his way over to my shop. (he swears that he knows more than I do). Anyway, with all shore power off, breakers off (& none tripped) ditto on the inverters we will test the AC input (charger & transfer) and the AC output and see what we get. I will test each inverter one individually. Pic for your viewing pleasure.

[blacklab]

Jon & I connected last nite & we traced my #2 inverter problem to a bad 30 amp breaker @ the main panel. For $6.00 at Home Depot, I am up & running. Can you imagine how much this COULD have cost me ?? Hat's off to Jon !! Thanks again.

[phorner]

Great job!! Nothing better than a successful project accomplished with a simple fix...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You made my night Tom. Really glad we were able to chase it down.

[dalej]

Paul, I have a feeling yours is going to be that simple.

[truk4u]

And they won't spend a hundred bucks to join this group!:(

[mikedee]

I lost an inverter in my Royale and was just sitting down to write you a detailed description of the inverter system when I saw the good news. I did about what Jon suggested and determined my inverter was the problem.

I removed the #2 inverter and jumped the 120 V output to the first inverter. Every thing worked great on one inverter, just had half wattage. I am a big Ebay user and found a factory rebuilt 2512 with 1 year warranty from a solar dealer in Florida for $975.00. It came in a factory box and I swear it was new, no marks at all.

I installed and programed the unit and it works perfect The inverter just passed out of warranty, should fail any day now.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

FWIW I believe that some inverters can be easily repaired. My Heart Interface Freedom 2500 inverters (identical to Blacklab's) have a couple of boards and a fan, all of which are replaceable.

If you have a "failed" inverter it might be worth talking to the folks that built it to see if boards are slide in type and thus can be replaced by someone with no particular knowledge of an inverter.

I do know from installing by-pass switches in my coach that inverters need cooling, and one of the things I am going to very much aware of in the future is the cooling fan operation with the hopes that if my fan fails to function, I will notice that and get the fan replaced before it costs me repairs to my inverter. On my coach the converter provided a secondary pair of fans powered by the inverter output to insure constant airflow through the inverter so it is critical and likely extends the life of the inverter.

[Just Plain Jeff]

A long time ago and far, far away, we plugged into a box that some genius had wired improperly. It 'blew' the inverter and some other stuff.

A really smart guy at a local RV shop was undaunted in his quest to fix the inverter instead of replace it.

What he found was a 35-cent fuse had blown in the power supply. Instead of paying the big bucks for a new one, we were back on the road in short order for short money.

Sadly, Jon happens to be correct on this one.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

A long time ago and far, far away, we plugged into a box that some genius had wired improperly. It 'blew' the inverter and some other stuff.

This has been covered in another thread, but with so many new owners and coaches coming to POG, I thought I would bring this item up again as something Very Worthwhile to have on board your bus, and to use religiously.

http://www.got50amps.com/


Gary S.

[JIM KELLER]

FWIW I believe that some inverters can be easily repaired. My Heart Interface Freedom 2500 inverters (identical to Blacklab's) have a couple of boards and a fan, all of which are replaceable.

If you have a "failed" inverter it might be worth talking to the folks that built it to see if boards are slide in type and thus can be replaced by someone with no particular knowledge of an inverter.

I do know from installing by-pass switches in my coach that inverters need cooling, and one of the things I am going to very much aware of in the future is the cooling fan operation with the hopes that if my fan fails to function, I will notice that and get the fan replaced before it costs me repairs to my inverter. On my coach the converter provided a secondary pair of fans powered by the inverter output to insure constant airflow through the inverter so it is critical and likely extends the life of the inverter.
Jon, I have noticed one of my Heart Interface Freedom 2500 Inverters never has the fan running. I questioned several people and got the same response. Something like " that's because one is primary and the other is secondary" I always felt uncomfortable with that answer. Who can I call to order a fan motor for this unit so I will have it when I take it apart ? I realize it could be something other than the motor but I also like spare parts !

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jim,

Here is an easy way to see if the inverter fan is working.

Turn on a lot of DC lights in the coach, turn off the inverter you know has a working fan, and listen at the inverters.

With one inverter off, the second one will sense the need to send a charge to the batteries, and once it starts charging the fan should soon come on.

The fans do not come on instantly, nor do they remain on while the inverter is working. They tend to cycle as temperatures rise they come on and go off when it falls to some lower level.

My inverters act exactly as you describe, and I do not yet understand why one seems dominant.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

I tried the site you gave and they are back ordered and don't even luist a price. I checked around and here is an alternative for those that are interested. This also offers surge protection.

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/ac-power-analyzer.htm

[JIM KELLER]

Jon, What a great common sense diagnostic approach ! I'm disappointed in myself for not thinking of it. Thanks for your help.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Gary,

I tried the site you gave and they are back ordered and don't even luist a price. I checked around and here is an alternative for those that are interested. This also offers surge protection.

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/ac-power-analyzer.htm


Jon, they do indicate back order, but under "about" they show a price of $179.95 with a introductory price of list minus $60.00 for a buy it now price of $119.95

[Joe Cannarozzi]

When we had our 24 volt Heart repaired we were told that it operates so efficiently that usually the only time the fans will run is when it is in battery charge mode and then only sometimes.

I specifically told him that I had never heard the fans and was told that checking them was a standard part of his bench test of our circut board and they were o/k.

They are completely repairable. I dismantled ours to get the circuit board out, sent it off for repair and reinstalled it. That along with a bad auto switch and we are back in business.

For the few out there with older buses this is a 25 year old inverter I'm talking about. I was also told that not unlike many things the older ones are conservatively rated and better built. Ours is a 2000 and was told that it is capable of handling a start up surge of 5000.

Ours is located in the second bay, starboard side and it has a doubled up battery cable to it. I'm assuming that is to compensate for the voltage drop being 15ft or so from the batteries.

Once again for those who missed it, when Heart was bought out, by whoever I forget, they sold all their parts and refer all repairs to:

Dave Gustdorf at Gustdorf Electronics, Santa Fe, NM

He also told me that he has had one on, under his bench, nonstop for something like 5 years now:eek:

[blacklab]

I googled(?) Gustdorf Elelectronics and found this info:

Gusdorf Electronics
649 Camino De La Luz
Santa Fe, NM 87501
1-505-983-4095
davegusdorf@msn.com

I'm gonna copy his contact info in my manual for future reference.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

It is temperature related Joe. And you are right that it has to be charging the battery which is why I asked Jim to turn on a lot of DC lights to load the current draw. When the inverters are not charging the battery, such as when in float, they really aren't doing much.

Mine comes on with about a 25 amp DC current draw after a little while, but they do cycle on and off.

[JIM KELLER]

I googled(?) Gustdorf Elelectronics and found this info:

Gusdorf Electronics
649 Camino De La Luz
Santa Fe, NM 87501
1-505-983-4095
davegusdorf@msn.com

I'm gonna copy his contact info in my manual for future reference.

When trying to line up a potential source for Heart Interface Freedom 2500 Inverters I find no reference to this product on their website and no one answers the 1 505 983 4095. May not be a good contact.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

This is right off the Xantrex Technology site.

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/52/p/1/pt/9/product.asp

Since it is a current product I doubt there will be any trouble getting support or parts. On this site you can download all the operating and installation manuals as PDF files.

[JIM KELLER]

Thank You, Sir.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I called Xantrex just to make sure that the info I suggested is still accurate and it is.

The address and phone that Blacklab listed is also accurate.

If you do not get an answer keep trying he is great to work with and you will be glad you did.

[JIM KELLER]

I called Xantrex just to make sure that the info I suggested is still accurate and it is.

The address and phone that Blacklab listed is also accurate.

If you do not get an answer keep trying he is great to work with and you will be glad you did.

Thanks Joe.

[rfoster]

- No BS here- we have a bunch of Reaganites on this forum. Trust But Verify! I love it.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Gary,

I tried the site you gave and they are back ordered and don't even luist a price. I checked around and here is an alternative for those that are interested. This also offers surge protection.

http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/ac-power-analyzer.htm


Sorry about them being on Back Order Jon. :( That either means they are very good products, and they can't make enough for demand or WELL YOU KNOW THE OTHER. We got ours at the Pamona,CA RV Show in January, and it cost $120. I called the owner of the 50amp Power Pal, and he apoligized for being out. He is getting back into production, but probably won't have any till after the first of the year.

But Your product looks to maybe be a better product, cause if I read it right, it checks the voltage at the pole before you plug in, and then acts like a Surge Protector for the bus, when you are plugged in to it. VERY NICE.

We have a PPL 5 miles down the highway from us, if you need me to pick up one and ship it to you, just let me know.

Gary S

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

Thanks. Still looking at alternatives. Some coaches already have built in protections and at this point I am clueless as to what I have. I do have annunciator lights on my panel to tell of some electrical faults, but I do not know if I have surge protection.

Even when I figure out what I have, it doesn't mean other coaches have the same thing. I do know some coaches, notably Parliament will not allow power to get to the coach if that power is not right. Saw that in person with JPJ on the way to Branson and it is a remarkable feature.

[Just Plain Jeff]

This is in response to Jon's point about the Parliament 2002, XLII. It's this coach: http://www.parliamentcoach.com/PREOWNED/c276%202002%20parliament%20xlii%2045/PHOTOSPECS.htm

Hadn't seen it on any previous coaches. It monitors voltage/amperage and keeps you from screwing up something in the coach if you have bad power.

The benefit here is that if your alternator isn't working right and the inverters are both drawing heaving Bulk to recharge the batteries, it won't let current in until you override it. So you can figure out the problem yourself.

I don't remember what the gizmo is, but a guy could call Parliament talk to them about it if a guy wanted to.

[Larry W]

I will try to get in on this before the subject is changed as usally happens because of my laziness.
My coach has a polarity checker and a surge protector.
The poarity checker has two set of lights showing either correct polarity or reverse polarity. It is located in the same bay as the main breaker. The operation is when plugging in to shore power to turn off the main coach breaker, plug in the shore power line and check the lights for the correct polarity. If good polarity is found turn the main breaker on.

The surge protector is located at the power transfer box. It appears it is a house item as it is a Levitor Transient Volatage Surge Potector. The surge protector has a green light for each leg indicating correct voltage. There is a red warning light and a audible noise maker to indicate any surge. The manual states a big surge may make the protector self sacrificing. This means to me if I encounter a major surge the surge protector will have to be replaced. The model number is 32120-001 if anyone would want to or need to add surge protection. It is a hard wire installation.

While on the subjet of electricity, I found I was having a very short run time with the house batteries while dry camping for a week in Canada. I began to look for the cause and found it was what we had plugged into 120 volts and not using. We had two lap top chargers and a cell phone charger plugged in but not in use. Then it dawned on me to unplug the chargers and to my amazement the battery run time increased about 4 hours. These chargers draw current even while setting idle.

Thanks to all of you for the great things I have learned about bus owership here.

Larry W
2000 Royale XL 45'