Battery Basics ??

[phorner]

Okay, what am I doing wrong??

How do the chassis batteries get charged while the coach is plugged into 50 amp service? Or, do they not get charged?

Went to start the bus for its once-a-month-because-I-like-the-sound-and- it-gets-things-lubricated start up and the batteries appear dead.

No cranking....nuthin'...

So, apparently I've misunderstood how they get charged while plugged in.

And, how do I get them charged now that they're down? It doesn't appear that the generator charges them, but I haven't let it run long enough to tell for sure.

Hey, Lew, if you push......... I'll steer...

[dalej]

My chassis batts don't get charged unless the engine is running. When parked for periods of time I shut down the disconnect.

You can charge two batteries at a time with a 12v charger and then boost the other two with a car or truck.

Our batteries were dead one morning when we first bought our coach back in 98, used Jan's jeep to start it.

Ours is a 86, so yours might be all together different, good luck.

[phorner]

Thanks, Dale...

Now that I've confirmed with my voltmeter that I have 4 "dead" batteries, what's the safest way to charge them?

I have a 12 volt charger and can afford to take the time to charge each battery at a time if need be.

There are also 2 switches: "24 volt disconnect" and "12 volt disconnect".

Can I simply turn the disconnects off and then disconnect each battery to charge it? By turning the disconnects off, have I removed the batteries from everything?

Should I turn either, or both, off while parked for an extended time?

Seems that there should be a relatively easy way to keep them charged while plugged into shore power.

[dalej]

There are some that use a tender for the chassis batts. but I and others don't have a problem with drain
down, so don't use one.

Just shut off the 24v when parked and monitor the drain, if you have some it's coming from the 12v, so
disconnect it also.

If your not in a hurry, then charge each battery separate and check drain down, to see if all the batteries
are holding charge.

It is hard for anyone to speak on someone else’s coach since someone at sometime could have
changed some of the wiring on a coach. We only talk in general terms.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

Be careful you are not addressing the real issue.

To start with your chassis batteries should have no load, parasitic or otherwise when you turn off the key. If you do have a load you need to find out what it is, determine if it should be there, and if your coach has a load you think is important to have on the coach, then turning off the coach master switches is just going to end up turning off this load as well.

If it does not turn off the load then you have a bigger problem because someone added something directly to the batteries (or some connection point ahead of the master switch).

But if you do not have a load of any type you may have a bad battery pulling the others down. I have parked my coach with all switches on for as long as 90 days and it has started with no boost or recharging of the batteries.

If you can find anybody with a new style battery tester of sufficient size you can test each battery and determine if any battery has a defect.

While the concept of starting the bus periodically seems like a good idea, it is probably more damaging to the coach than taking it for a 40 or 50 mile run to get everything up to temperature and to exercise all the seals, valves, tires, and systems.

Let us know what you find out about your batteries.

[truk4u]

Paul,

Does Liberty not have the boost switch for boosting the house and/or chassis?

Jon?

Also, be careful on your charging, the chassis is probably parallel/series and you have both 24 and 12 volt sources.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

In our coach we have a dedicated circuit breaker for a 24 volt charger, which charger is located above the chassis batteries.

But....this charger is intended to slap a charge into the batteries to get you going, unlike the house battery chargers that are in the inverters which are meant to be left on 100% of the time.

This topic has been discussed over the years. Prevost wants you to turn off the chassis master switches every time you stop, even if it just for over night. I have the philosophy that I don't want to do that except when I am servicing the chassis, so I want they to be no "key off" loads.

I don't know how Paul's coach is set up? Paul?????

[phorner]

I agree. It does seem very odd to me that the batteries, which are less than a year old, would not last for at least several months without being charged.

I am noticing a rhythmic "click-clock" sound in the battery compartment which appears to be coming from the Vanner Model 60-100D High Efficiency Battery Equalizer. The sounds occur at 10 second intervals and I don't recall ever having heard them before.

Could it be that the equalizer is just trying to "equalize" dead batteries?

Or, could this be an indication of a faulty equalizer which caused the problem in the first place?

I can see that between electrical and air systems, I've got a full time job ahead of me!

[MangoMike]

Paul,

I have one of those new digital high tech battery testers as outlined by Nick Hessler at POG4. I would be glad to send it down to you.

1817

Mike

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I also have one. Different brand, but the important thing is that it has the capacity to handle your largest battery (house =1960 CCA). It is a good investment because batteries are your critical items.

[phorner]

Thanks for the offers guys.... I'll keep ya posted...

[jello_jeep]

OK Mango, Jon.... Lets post names, models and sources for the tools! :D

It will make them easier for me to order, when Kelly is not looking! :D

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Hey J-J,

If me and Mango got to do all the leg work for you on this stuff you need to consider we want compensation. We don't work cheap.

http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com/xq/asp/prodid.130395/TID.%7B3D26610D-9E2F-4B74-B05D-DBA06600258D%7D/qx/product.htm

[garyde]

Hi Paul. Before you do anything, check to see if your batteries are wet batteries and the cells are full. I made the mistake of believing my batteries were sealed and they were not. Charging wet bateries w/o water will end their life.
I believe like Jon said Liberty provides a 24 volt built in charger controlled by your circuit breaker panel. Charge for a max of one hour & then start engine.

[phorner]

Well, so far, it's not looking good....

I disconnected one of the batteries and connected a 6 amp battery charger to it, but it doesn't seem to be taking the charge. Also, I shut off both the 12 and 24 volt disconnects.

If the batteries have been drained too low, that could be the end for them, or so it seems.

Still getting the strange clicking noise.... almost like a relay opening and closing.

[garyde]

Hi Paul. Make sure your ignition key is turned off and out of the ignition.

[jello_jeep]

As long as I get to pick the compensation, I'm up with it!

When you use it to check the charging system, are you attaching it at the batteries? Or directily to the charging source ?




Hey J-J,

If me and Mango got to do all the leg work for you on this stuff you need to consider we want compensation. We don't work cheap.

http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com/xq/asp/prodid.130395/TID.%7B3D26610D-9E2F-4B74-B05D-DBA06600258D%7D/qx/product.htm

[Jon Wehrenberg]

On the model I have you select the battery rating, like 750 CCA with it connected to the battery and it tells you the battery condition. It will tell if it needs charging, if has an internal failure and needs replacing, if it is OK, etc.

It will also check the condition of the starting and charging system, but I haven't used it for that yet.

[phorner]

I'm still getting that "clicking" noise on a regular pattern. Could this be from the equalizer? And, does this indicate a problem, or is it a function of the batteries being dead?

Looks like I'm not going to be able to accomplish much. The battery that I disconnected is still drawing 5 amps from a 6 amp charger after 6 hours....

The battery is not accepting the charge? Seems like the charge rate should have dropped significantly or stopped by now.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Not really, you are using what is barely more than a trickle charger on a completely dead battery and that will take a while.

Our bus has a 24 volt equalizer switch that will tie the house with the chassis. With it on we can draw chassis power for the house but not the other way around and our charger will not charge the chassis either.

Get a bigger charger. With it you can split the chassis batts. in half, charge 2 at a time and have enough juice to start in an hour or so

[phorner]

Thanks, Joe.

What should be the amp output rating of an appropriate battery charger for this application?

What would work well charging 1 or 2 batteries at a time?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We made the mistake of leaving bay doors open for a couple of weeks while camping, draining the chassis and charged up 2- 12's at a time with a 30 amp charger and it wasn't an hour before it was running.

[truk4u]

Paul,

I would unhook the ground cable to the equalizer while your working on this stuff, that will prevent any problems if you short something and the clicking will probably stop. I would also kill both 12 & 24 volt switches.

I just added a Quest charger for my chassis batteries that is a 3 stage charger, bulk, absorbtion and then float and can be used as either 12 or 24.

[MangoMike]

Paul,

Although Jon's '97 Elegant Lady came with a chassis battery charger, the Mothership, which is a classic did not.

Like Tom, I added this 3 stage Marine battery charger which kept everything up to par without cooking the batteries.

1818

at amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Guest-2611A-Battery-Charger-24-Volt/dp/B000NHZV1S


MIke

[jimblu]

The Iota 24 volt 40 Amp charger converter http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls2740.htm
allows you to troubleshoot with the key on for extended periods, and will marginally power the bus off the generator or inverter if the 24 volt alternator expires turning a no go into a non event. It can be left on in float mode and might even increase the life of the batteries.

[phorner]

Thanks, Truk and Mike...

I ordered up the 3 stage marine charger from Amazon (last one in stock!) and expect it next week. I'll probably need some guidance for installation.

I'm also out the door to get a better portable battery charger. This 6 amp rate just doesn't get the job done....

And, I'll make sure to disconnect the ground on the equalizer. Hopefully, I'll remember to reconnect it!

Is it OK to simply disconnect each battery and charge 1 at a time? I like to keep things simple.... every once in a while it keeps me out of serious trouble.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Can Paul jump the house to the chassis to get started:confused:

[MangoMike]

Installed in the Mothership

I used the outlet from the block heater.

1819

MIke

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

Please post your type Liberty. It will help answer some questions, such as Jim's about jumping.

Jim,

If Paul has an Elegant Lady he can jump from the house to the chassis because it is 24V, but if he has the Classic he cannot because it is a 12V system.

[MangoMike]

Jelloman,

Get that Amazon charge account ready.

1820

http://www.amazon.com/Allstart-Battery-Electrical-Tester-BET300/dp/B000ESZ3RS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1194794752&sr=8-1


Mike

[phorner]

Our Liberty is a Classic. Things are looking up a bit. With a new 25 amp charger applied, as opposed to my old 6 amp charger, the batteries are taking the charge.

Also, by disconnecting the equalizer ground wire, the mysterious "clicking" did stop.

My plan is to take each battery out of service and charge it at a time.

The up side to all this is, at least I'll have nice shiny, clean battery terminal connections!

However, I have not found an outlet for an engine block heater. I did, however, find what appears to be a 110v line that is wire-tied in a bundle and just "ends" .

I'm hoping that it's not a live 110 volt line without any type of protection....

[MangoMike]

Paul,

On the Mothership the outlet was just a 110v wire with an outlet attached, and it was sort of hid behind the reserve oil tank, just above the engine doors. Should be a breaker in your inside power panel marked block heater (or something equivalent).

Mike

[phorner]

Mike,

I think you've solved the mystery of my coiled 110 volt line.

It's wire-tied in a somewhat neat bundle just below the oil reserve tank and just above the air filter. And, I do have the breaker for the block heater that you described...... that's the good news.

The bad news is that the 110v bundle doesn't have any type of plug or receptacle on it.... kinda looks like the end of the wire was just cut off!

Good thing that breaker has been turned off !!

The closer I look at this bus, the better I understand it, and the more concerned I get about the way it was apparently treated in the past......

So, I guess the next step is to strip back some of the insulation on the 110 line, turn on the breaker, and test for voltage.

Then, I can get things set up in anticipation of the charger I've got ordered.

Luckily, I have no business EVER being in a place where an engine block heater would actually be necessary!

Thanks for the insight...

[MangoMike]

Paul,

Sounds like you're on the right track. I would simply add a well constructed outlet to the cord, so that in the event you head north this winter, say to pickup some Jerk Chicken from Mango Mike's, you can still plug in the block heater. Of course, running the Webasto will also pre-heat your engine.

Mike

[truk4u]

Paul,

Your on the right track, but while the batteries are out and after a full charge, you should load test them to be sure you don't have a dead cell that would in turn drag down all the others.

The plug you and Mango are talking about will work for you, as I did the same thing on my Marathon. Don't be concerned about loosing your engine heating capabilities, your Webasco should do that. The plug would be for the 110V block heater that you may or may not have.

[MangoMike]

Geez Trukman, just copy my entire post. Let's show some creativity.
;)

Mango

[phorner]

Sounds like the Webasto will be my engine block heater of choice, should the need ever arise. I've vowed to remain south of I-4 between November and April.....

But that Jerk Chicken sure does sound good! Makes me hungry just thinkin' about it.

Now, where did she stow those margarita glasses???......

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

Have you found any loads that may have pulled the battery down? That is the real solution to the problem if it is not a battery that is failing.

I was going to repeat the above but Mango is a little testy today so I will just say he is right on the money.

[garyde]

I would purchase a single gang waterproof box(Raco) & a in-use WP Taymac cover and a 20A,120V duplex recepticle. Install this to a convienant location with two #10x 1" self tapping screw. If the Block heater does not have a male cord cap on the cord, purchase a 20A,120volt male strait prong male cap .
I would have the ability to use your electric engine block heater, as you would not want to leave the Webasto on overnight or for 24 hours or more.

[phorner]

I have not found the electrical loads that drew the batteries down in the first place... which, of course, is the root problem. Both the 12volt and 24 volt disconnects where "on" however, but I don't think that should have mattered in such a short time.

A new wrinkle is the engine block heater circuit. Having found what should have been the 110 volt wiring for the engine heater connection, I turned on the breaker but found no current at the end of the wires. I'm guessing that this bus may have never had a heater, but that seems so unlikely.

My next step will be to remove the cover from the CB panel and see if anything is connected to the breaker labeled for the EB Heater. I'm hoping that there will be nothing connected. But hopefully a "spare" run of wire will be found in the box. If I'm real lucky,it will even be labeled!

If that doesn't work out, my plan is to use a temporary extension cord while parked to power up the new charger.

It won't be pretty but should be effective...

[MangoMike]

Paul,

You need the generator running or shore power to power the circuit to the engine block heater. Best to my knowledge that it does not run off the inverters.

Gary - we like that detail.

Mike

[phorner]

Yeah, I'm connected to shore power... wouldn't do well to have battery chargers connected to the inverters!

[phorner]

Well, as I'm continuing along my trek to disconnect and charge each battery in turn, as I removed the nuts from the battery posts of battery #3, the ends of the cables attached to one of the posts just crumbled into nothing.

So, it looks like I get to play electrician tomorrow. I need to replace a short, say 8" or so, battery cable that acts as a jumper, and replace the ends to a couple of wires from the wiring harness that now have no connector on them to attach to the battery post.

If I have to keep doing this level of maintenance, I'm gonna need to press Janice into duty with the stainless polish...I'm getting behind in the polishing schedule and Lew has been chastising me about the water spots and finger prints...

[truk4u]

I didn't steal your post chicken boy, he MAY NOT have a 110V block heater!;)

[phorner]

Well, it looks like I'm getting closer to being finished. All 4 batteries are charged up and I'm in the middle of replacing some of the questionable cables.

Any suggestions as to handle these destroyed connectors? They attach to a negative terminal and are part of a wiring harness.

What's the best way to handle this repair?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

A battery distributor can make new cables for you, or you can make your own. The ends are available at welding supply stores or battery specialists and the tool to crimp the ends is a simple punch and die type fixture that you insert the cable end in and hammer it to make the crimp.

The black insulation over the end terminal is just heat shrink tubing.

[phorner]

I'll need to replace the ends/connectors. They actually have 2 wires each, which aren't clear in the photo, and the wire disappears into a wiring harness cable wrap.

Hopefully, once the old ends are cut off, I'll have enough wire to reach the terminal.

Is it better to twist the 2 wires together before crimping on the end, or place them parallel to each other (the way they are now) and crimp the center?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I hope a smart electrical guy would answer this, but if it was me I would twist them. I am not sure you need the big battery type terminals since you might find suitable sized ring terminals.

What I now realize is that if those are connected to your bus batteries I'll bet you the Happy Meal Joe owes me for the nitrogen thing that is the phantom load draining your bus batteries. Chase them down and figure out why someone connected them to the batteries instead of the terminal posts in the bus rear junction box.

[phorner]

I was wondering the same thing about those wires, Jon. I get suspicious when there's anything but battery cables attached directly to the batteries.

If you think the ends of those wires look bad, you should have seen the battery cable that I replaced! The copper-colored cable in the photo is a new replacement, which was made up at a local battery place. I also replaced a couple of others that looked tired while I had everything apart.

[dalej]

I agree Jon, I don't like to see anything connected to the chassis batteries. The chassis batts are to important to have anything to them. If its a connection to the house batts that the converter did I would put a disconnect right at the batts.

Paul, can you find where those cables go?

[phorner]

I'm going to try my best to track them down. Right now, they just kind of "disappear" into a wiring harness. There's these 2 pair connected to each terminal of the battery in the photo.

For what it's worth,the negative 2 pair are black and the positive 2 pair are yellow. This probably only means something to whoever installed them.

My first instinct is to replace them and then see if the bus starts and runs OK. Then, I'll spend some more time tracking them down.

Could they be part of the Detroit or Allison systems? I wasn't sure if either the engine or trans required a direct connection such as this.

If it's merely for some accessory, I'll feel much better tinkering with it.

In the mean time, I'm also going to concentrate on a method to keep the chassis batteries charged while plugged into shore power.

[Ray Davis]

Do these extra wires go to a single battery, i.e. black to negative, and yellow to positive? if so, this is most likely some 12v add-on?

[phorner]

Yes, these extra wires go to a single battery. There are 2 pair and look identical.

So, I agree that a 12v accessory is a likely candidate.

Now then, since the negative leads are disconnected, I should have a 12 volt something that doesn't work, right?

I had high hopes for the CB, but it powered up fine. I also have both the 12 volt and 24 volt disconnects "off", so I'm sure how that enters the mix of variables.

[bill&jody]

ph-

while you're at it: it appears from the pic in post #45 there is a steel washer under the big cable ring connector. you need to remove this. the connector needs to touch the lead post. steel doesn't have the conductivity of copper or lead and wil cause a large voltage drop at high current, like when you're starting.

of course, if there's no washer there, as rose rosannadanna would say, "never mind".

wmm

[phorner]

Thanks for the tip. Actually, that's the base of the battery post, but I'm glad to keep learnin'...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

To help understand the situation those wires are creating an imbalance by being connected as you describe. They will pull a single battery down and that will drag the rest with it.

Just for the hell of it, leave them off and if anything on the coach does not work then worry about it.

[garyde]

I would chase those wires down. I have several small yellow wires attached to my batteries as well and it was done by the convertor. These are what are called parasitic loads which go direct to the batteries so certain electrical systems do not get turned off. Also, I have wires attached from my battery charger. So, verify before changeing your wiring. The terminal ends (ring type) can be purchased at any auto store, they look like #6 guage because of the two #10 copper wires. I would strip back about 1 inch and twist the copper a couple of times, slip them into the terminal and crimp with a crimp tool or with a pair of dikes. (2 crimps). Also, slide on a piece of suitable size shrink tube prior to crimping.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

Your comment about wires attached directly to the batteries took me by surprise. Are they attached to the chassis batteries, and are you sure Liberty did them?

I can fully understand if the converter attaches loads to the house batteries. That is their domain, and we would have to assume they had a reason. But the downside of that is that the coach can never be turned off, meaning any coach storage will require shore power because without it those parasitic loads will kill the batteries.

[phorner]

By appearance, they do look like they were installed by Liberty.

What do the 12 and 24 volt disconnects actually "disconnect"? I'm thinking this is a Prevost feature and should be the same function from bus to bus, regardless of converter?

So far, I've only found the driver's seat inoperable with those wires disconnected, but the passenger seat works OK. That doesn't make sense to me, but then again, so far not much has...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The chassis shut off switches, 24 volt is for the battery bank, and the 12 volt is the tap from the battery bank for the DDEC.

I admit my experience with Liberty is limited to 2 coaches, but I am troubled that a parasitic draw would be added to a coach to FORCE the owner to always have shore power available so the batteries could be charged at all times. Does not sound right. Actually is sounds like someone added it without thinking through the consequences.

Passenger seat is electric and comes from the house circuits. Driver's seat is air and if the aux pressure is zero it will not work.

[phorner]

Only problem is... the batteries died while continuously plugged into shore power.

That's what has me concerned. If I lose the chassis batteries while maintaining power to the coach, something has to be wrong.

The coach sat for about 3 weeks, house power connectd all the time, since the last start-up, and the chassis batteries were dead.

Since we live in the bus full-time, I have no objection to keeping it plugged in when the alternator isn't keeping things charged up.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

You can be plugged into shore power, but if there is no battery charging provision on your chassis batteries they are going to go dead because of the parasitic load. That is why they are a bad thing.

I have sat for at least 3 months, with my chassis switches ON, no charger for the chassis batteries, opening bay doors on occasion (drawing power from the batteries due to lights which I think are chassis) and still had plenty of battery power to start the coach. The object is to get your coach to a point where you do not have to worry about dead batteries. In fact judging by the size of the wires that parasitic load is not a tiny one if it is on a circuit that is hot at all times.

I have zero issues with loads being connected to either set of batteries if two conditions are met, neither of which appears to be the case with your coach. First, the circuit is fused or protected at the batteries. Every inch of wire between the circuit protection and the battery post is an unfused hazard. Second, the circuit is not "on" except when you turn it on so you can control if it draws down your batteries. If an unprotected or poorly protected circuit is on all the time (fuse no further than 18" from the battery post) you not only have a current draw you have a potential fire hazard.

I went through this issue on my previous coach where a previous owner did some shade tree engineering and hooked the Racor heater element directly to the batteries. The thing that made it impossible to quickly locate was it wasn't drawing current until the internal thermostat called for heat, so I couldn't find the current draw until it got cold. The only thing I beleive to be directly from any of my batteries now is my CB and I have no clue why, but it is called out in my owner's manual to be that way.

[dalej]

Paul, just to review, you have the chassis batteries charged, the bus starts and everything is fine, the bus charging is ok, except you need to replace the ends on the two cables in the photo?

[phorner]

I reconnected the damaged wires and fired up the bus. Good news is it started.

But, I'm getting readings from the Liberty gauges of 15 and 27 volts, respectively, including 15 or more volts for the house batteries.

With the high house battery voltages, the inverters are in a fault stage of some sort.

Shore power is disconnected at the breaker in the 1st bay.

[dalej]

Can you leave the cables with the bad ends disconnected to see if your still getting draw down on your chassis batteries. If you can do this in the dark, touch the bad positive cables, almost a striking against the post to see if you have much draw or if you have a DC amp meter that would be the best to check draw.

I think I would leave them disconnected for a few days to see what's going on with those cables.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

The 27 volt chassis voltage is OK. I would expect to see it climb to around 27.7 or thereabouts as the batteries get fully charged.

The 15 volt for the house is a little high unless the inverter went into equalize mode. Is your equalizer hooked back up? 13.8 to 14.2 would be around where I would expect to see the house when the inverters are maintaining the charge on fully charged batteries.

Why is the shore power off in the coach and not in the campground the power outlet? If you are trying to verify everything is OK you want to make sure all switches and devices are in the normal mode.

[phorner]

Jon,

I shut the power off at the breaker in the bus bay simply as a matter of convenience. I subsequently then shut down the breaker in the resort power pedestal.

One thing that I've learned is that the inverters do not like to have me start the bus while connected to shore power. For some reason, when I do this, it acts as if the house batteries are getting over charged (which, I guess they are, since both the inverter/chargers are working as well as the alternator at that point) so I have to remember to disconnect from shore power before starting the engine.

I did notice that the dash engine monitor clock display went back to a flashing 12:00 after I had shut down the 12 and 24 volt disconnects, which indicates to me that this "draw" can be eliminated by using the disconnect switches. But that should, in my opinion, draw very little current and shouldn't have been enough to kill the chassis batteries in less than a month.

I'm sure things will be better once I have everything down to a set procedure and gain more experience in using the bus.

It was a real eye-opener to turn that ignition key and have absolutely nothing happen!

Is there a good way to measure the current draw from the chassis batteries while parked and in a "shut down" (both disconnects in the off position) mode? If so, that seems to be a good starting place to figure out what I need to do next. My ultimate plan is to install the battery charger that you recommended, which should arrive in the next week or so.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You can use a clamp type meter that measures DC current (Fluke 336A for example) or a multimeter that has a current measuring capability. If the draw is greater than 10 amps that will exceed most meters, but not the clamp type.

I'd have to get more familiar with your coach because some stuff doesn't sound right. Both the inverters and engine driven alternator sense current and regulate the voltage so you could have three chargers on there and the battery voltage is unlikely to exceed a certain preset value. That is why I questioned if the inverters went into equalize which is a higher voltage than the bulk charge voltage, and which the inverters are capable of doing. It is not a bad thing if that is what happened, but it is a bad thing if the voltages are out of control.

On your bus the house should have a dedicated alternator specifically for the house. If the higher voltage is present when the bus is runnning I would be very suspicious of the alternator or the voltage regulator (most likely).

[dalej]

Paul, when you have the bus engine off and you go to the dash, can you see the volts of the chassis batts? My thinking is if you can then watch the chassis battery volts over a period to see if they are dropping. Ours doesn't loose volt while just sitting, but I normaly flip the disconnect. I still would leave the cables with the bad ends off, I have a feeling they are coming from the house batteries.

It would sure be fun to be parked next to you, so we could see for sure what your dealing with.

[phorner]

Thanks for all the help.

Dale, if you really wanna have fun, Lot 24, right next to me in Outdoor Resorts, is available!

The mystery wires that had the bad connections have all the appearances of an "original" installation.

So, I'll continue tomonitor the situation. At least I know what I need to do to get the batteries charged if need be.

I've schedulled a service appointment to have everything checked out and to have my handiwork on the replacement cable ends inspected.

[Ray Davis]

Paul,

One concern I have in reading through this thread. I think there were two misunderstandings in your posts, which I'd like to try to clarify.

As Jon has pointed out, most draw items, like clock, radio etc, should all be driven off the house batteries, NOT your coach/chassis batteries.

Basically the coach/chassis batteries should ONLY be used to start the bus, and nothing else.


The other important thing to understand is that unless you've added a charger back in your engine bay, the ONLY time the chassis batteries are being charged is when your engine is running. Default condition on these busses is that there is NO charger on the chassis batteries.

Plugging in to shore power will NOT charge your chassis batteries.


Ray

[truk4u]

Paul,

Not to beat a dead horse, I'm just trying to help, but if you have a dead cell or two the charges will charge like crazy and never get to the float. I mentioned this before and asked if you load tested them while they were removed, but you didn't say anything. Also, if your chassis batteries are AGM, make sure your charger is not Equalizing, bad thing to do.

[dalej]

Tom, do you think that there are those who use AGM in the chassis? I don't think I have seen that before.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

That is a question for Paul to answer. I know of several coaches now where the owners have gone to AGM.

Tom is on the money about equalizing and that is why I am asking about it and suggesting close monitoring of the system. I am still really bothered by those parasitic loads. They spell trouble.

[phorner]

The chassis batteries are standard wet cell batteries. Although I don't have the equipment to load test them, my charger is a digital, high frequency model that is supposed to give me a fault code if there is a bad cell, short, or similar problem.

Since it went to float charge and there were no fault codes, I'm relatively confident that the batteries are OK.

As I have learned, there is apparently no provision for charging the chassis batteries other than the alternator while the engine is running. Since I didn't"t have the disconnects in the "off" position, this whole episode may just be a case of pilot error in allowing the batteries to drain over a period of about 3 weeks.

However, this adventure did allow me to find some badly damaged cable ends which have been replaced and I've decided to add a charger for the chassis batteries. The ultimate result will hopefully be a more reliable coach which is better understood (and better maintained) by the owner.

Haven't given up yet!!

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

This is important......it would not matter if you had the battery disconnects for the chassis "off".

We are trying to tell you that those wires connected to your batteries ARE NOT going through the disconnect switches, and until you leave them disconnected, or find out what they are for, and you can be assured they are not pulling power you can almost bet that even if you turn off the battery disconnect switches your batteries are still going to end up dead.

Unless you want to leave a charger on them forever.

[dalej]

Paul, just the thought of the chassis batteries going down unless you throw the disconnect should alarm you a little. As Jon pointed out the chassis batteries could be left in the road ready position for some length of time, like your automobile.

[truk4u]

Dale - Yep, my Marathon had AGM's in the chassis. I wouldn't go to AGM's in the chassis, but someone previous to me did it.

Paul - Since my chassis is the same year as yours, although not a Liberty, when I start up and drive, my chassis alternator puts 14.2 volts into the chassis batteries for about 1 hour and then tapers off to 13.2. My regulator is adjustable and those numbers are recommended by the Lifeline Regulator documents. I mention this only to kind of give you a reference number if your setup is similar. As I mentioned, I just installed a Quest 3 stage charger for the chassis batteries, although like Jon, mine stays up without any measurable loss over time, but I'm anal about keeping them topped off. I have a digital dash in the CC and it seems to like all the juice it can get at startup. If you want pictures, let me know. Sounds like your batteries are good if it went to float, but I don't understand how your charger can check a cell without putting a load on it. Lots of new stuff out there, so I'm probably behind the curve.

Hang in there....;)

[garyde]

Jon. I will review those yellow wires tomorrow and let you know what they are energizing. My thought about Pauls batteries going dead may have to do with the burnt connections. He would not have been getting a charge when the engine was running with loose or bad connections. The burnt ends confirm he had a load heat up on the ends which means he had a tremendous amount of load heating up at the terminals. This may have been going on for quite some time. Therefore the batteries were dead because they were not getting charged.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

Your coach is new enough to be able to possibly trace how some things came about. Attaching anything directly to the batteries, and thus by-passing the power disconnect switches is bad practice and dangerous if those attachments are unfused.

Not knowing the history behind those kinds of things almost mandates that the owner investigates and finds out where they go just to be sure there is a good reason behind why they are there. One thing that I can envision as making sense for wires directly to batteries would be an owner installed charger, but other than that I'm at a loss to think of anything that wouldn't be better coming from one of the DC posts inside the front or rear electrical boxes (with a fuse or circuit breaker in close proximity).

[phorner]

I agree. It doesn't make sense to provide a battery disconnect to preserve the batteries and then wire something directly to them.... unless it's a battery charger.

[garyde]

Here is what I know. The two yellow wires and their companion black wires, from the battery, come up to two insulated threaded posts on the side wall above the batteries below the voltage regulator. They land on these posts and smaller yellow wires(2) & 2 black wires, leave from these posts and go somewhere.
The battery charger has a red circuit breaker the wires pass thru before landing on the battery.
I will have to check my schematics and do some more investigating.

[phorner]

Thanks for tracking those wires down. After talking to Liberty, they confirmed that there were extra yellow wires, but would need to see the coach to determine exactly how mine is set up.

They also confirmed that they install battery chargers to address this problem.

I have made an appointment to have mine checked out. And I'm waiting for my new battery charger to arrive.

I'll keep ya posted....

[hhoppe]

Paul: I have real good luck with DELTRAN Battery Tenders I use a single 24V Battery Tender on my Chassis Battery's. I use a 12V BT on my house battery's. They come on at a certain discharge point, charge to full charge and shut off. They work well when all my inverters and disconnect switches are shut off and the bus is in storage. If you are parked and want to maintain the charge in chassis batteries the 24V BT will do the trick. They should overcome your small discharge problem from those tramp yellow wires you have.
Be sure and use your tester to find the correct two posts in combination that are 24V in your four 12V battery group.

http://batterytender.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=24V+&x=16&y=15

[phorner]

Thanks, Harry. Since we live in the coach full-time, we never have it in "storage" mode.

However, I do want to keep the chassis batteries up, just in case we have a sudden urge for a new neighborhood once in a while!

Shouldn't be a problem when we're travelling, since the bus will be running every week or so. But every once in a while, we settle in for a month or more. Especially here in Florida for the winter months, where we don't actually have a winter......

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Paul: I have real good luck with DELTRAN Battery Tenders I use a single 24V Battery Tender on my Chassis Battery's.
http://batterytender.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=24V+&x=16&y=15

Harry I looked at the Deltran Battery tender that you use, and Noticed this: "DO NOT USE WITH AVIATION OR TRUE GEL BATTERIES".

I assume you don't have the newer GEL Batteries in your new Liberty? Just thought I would bring it to your attention. :confused:

Gary S.

[phorner]

Well, my battery charger has arrived and I'm looking forward to installing it. But, that will have to wait 'till after Thanksgiving, 'cause I got a whole lotta eatin' planned!

Now that I have this wonderful new accessory to help me subsidize Florida Power and Light to an even greater degree, any tips regarding installation?

I know, I could ask Lew to hold the red wire in one hand and the black in the other to make sure I'm getting voltage from the charger, but I'm afraid that he would have to interrupt his tending of his new sod farm.

I simply attach to the (correct) 2 batteries and plug it in?

[truk4u]

Paul,

The hook up is not as simple as you think! You end up with a floating ground in order to get 24v. I made a drawing that I can send you, providing your battery set up is similar to mine.

You can use the sample drawing that came with the Guest, but you are dealing with parallel/series, not just a simple series hook up between 2 batteries as they illustrate.

If you want help, let me know.

[phorner]

I would greatly appreciate any help that's offered! The last thing that I want to do is create an electrical fire hazard or destroy a battery or two.

I'm not sure if our busses are all configured the same or not, but since the chassis batteries are part of the shell, hopefully they are, at least in the same model years...

A diagram would be great!

[truk4u]

Paul,

Better yet, we're heading to Port St Lucie from the Keys this weekend, are you there now?

[phorner]

Yes, we're in Port st. Lucie. It would be great to visit!

[lewpopp]

Yeah, just around the corner from Lew's sod farm.

We are honest and above board people here, and we understand you walk around with your hand over your ass because of the Turd boys sneaking up on you.

Don't worry about us. We're all business.

[truk4u]

Oh, you finally woke up at the sod farm. You must have missed my previous messages about wanting to stop by and see how your doing. I just figured you were in cahoots with the two turd boys since they claim you were the original ring leader.:D

Hope to see you and Kathy and Paul this weekend..;)

[lewpopp]

Tom,

I am not in "cahoots" withthe turd boys. I used to be able to keep up with their likes cuz I loved getting even. Can't do it anymore. I sure do like being in the audience and get my chuckles. I would be glad to take your side if you would keep the dust down.

Looking forward to seeing you this weekend

[phorner]

As an up-date, thanks to Truk and Lew, my new battery charger is installed and working.

No smoke.... no blown fuses....

The installation went very well and it now appears that I have one less project to complete. At least I have some confidence that the bus will, in fact, start when I need it to.

I'm still planning to have Liberty take a look at the "mystery yellow wires" and confirm what they do and that they are installed correctly.

Thanks for all the advice, suggestions and guidance......

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I am PINGING this thread for any new guys that may have some questions.

There's a lot of good reading here about batteries, testing, charging and jumping.

Go to the first post and read them all :eek:



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