Aux brakes??

[phorner]

We tow a Jeep Liberty and have used a Brake Buddy for the past 5 years. It kind of does the job, but really only activates when the stop is fairly hard. And, because the effort is placed upon a "dead" brake pedal in the Jeep, I'm not sure how effective it really is.

It's also kind of a pain to set it up for towing and then ya gotta lug it around when not in use.

So, my question is, are there any comments or suggestions with regard to the use, and choice of, an aux braking system for the towed vehicle?

Seems like the bus really doesn't care whether the Jeep is there or not. But I want to do the right thing regarding safety and compliance with the law.

What's everybody like???

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I think the hot set-up all the big boys are using is made by M&G.

It is a air slave cylinder that goes in between the master cylinder and the power assist it currently attaches to, on the toad. You tap into the a bus brake line and run it back to the hitch, put a coupler there then continue it to the master cylinder on the toad. You will then simply have one additional line to unhook at the tow bar.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I agree with Joe that the M&G is probably the better choice on the market, but since I want flexibility I use brakemaster.

All each vehicle needs is the mounting plate on the floor, and an air line run to a spot near the mount. I then just switch the brake master which is an air cylinder that attaches to the floor mount and the pedal.

I have no clue as to the effectiveness of any of the systems, but the M&G as I understand it is adjustable and the brakemaster is not, only applying braking force to a dead pedal proportional to the brake force I use in the coach.

[hhoppe]

I have been using M&G system with good results on my Tahoe. I also added their break-away kit. It amounts to a small tank mounted on my firewall. with a electric breakaway switch tethered to the coach. When the switch is pulled out it activates a solenoid valve sending the air in the small tank to the M&G brake cylinder and locks up the brakes on the tow vehicle bringing it to a safe stop. All of the items have been trouble free so far. Aprox. 5000 Mi. of use. One small tether cord and one 1/4" air line to couple to the coach and your on your way. See M&G internet site.

[VegasDogMan]

Been using the M&G unit for nearly 4 yrs on my 04 Ford Explorer. Car weighs 4600 Lbs and have never had difficulty. Easy to install - had to cut away part of battery case to move master cyl forward but that was about it. Coach already had air chuck for toad brake. Will buy another (M&G has trade in plan) if I change cars this year.

[phorner]

Thanks for all the replies. I friend of mine that we have travelled with had the M&G system installed last year and is one of the systems at the top of my list.

Watching him hook up with just the connection of an air line, while I spent 5 minutes installing and setting up my Brake Buddy, is what inspired me to consider another option.

Guess I have some shopping to do.....

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Hey Paul, take Lew shopping with you. He needs to get out more!!:D

[Ray Davis]

Any concerns cutting into the air lines for the brake? I had considered the M&G system for my previous coach, but since I just wanted to get up and running quickly I got an Even Brake (like Brake Buddy) portable system.

After locking up the tires on my Civic once (incorrect procedue when initializing the Even Brake system), I soon realized that the bus doesn't even know the Civic is back there. Now I just keep the brake system there for legalities.

With this new coach and possibly towing a heavier car, I'm considering the M&G system. I'm just a little unsure of letting someone cut into the airbrake lines.

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

To get air to a tow car there is no cutting of air lines. To add an air fitting at the rear of my bus I merely removed a plug from an air distribution block that serves my tag axle brakes and added the fitting for the auxiliary brake system.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Ray, don't forget to use DOT rated plumbing!!!!!

[MangoMike]

Ray,
Drain main tanks first to avoid surprises.

Mike

[jack14r]

Will there be any air pressure on brake system with emergency brakes on?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ray, If you connect to the braking system there is no pressure anywhere on the air supply to the brakes, service or emergency if the bus is parked with the emergency brake on, and no pressure on the brake pedal.

The only time there is pressure to the service brakes is when you are applying pressure to the foot pedal, and the only time there is pressure to the emergency brake system is when they are disengaged.

[jack14r]

Thanks Jon thats what I remembered from my CDL book,but Mangos comment confused me.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack, we need to keep Mango on the straight and narrow. I'll bet he was thinking Ray needs to drain the tanks anyway and as long as he is under there he might as well do it then.

Ray: If you are going to hook up the air brakes for the car here is a picture of where I tapped in. Forgive the crude arrow. It points to the air line for the toad.

The picture is looking up from behind the tag axle, driver's side.

[Ray Davis]

Thanks for the picture Jon, that helps. Does this then go to a fitting on your rear bumper area that you then use quick disconnect fittings?

Is there any danger if this doesn't get "done" properly, that it will affect the braking system? Obviously, I'm not looking for trouble, but have never messed with air brakes in this fashion. I want to "do it right". Hopefully, I can locate a very competent installer? Would Prevost install the extra line to the bumper?

Ray

[hhoppe]

Ray: The air hookups are the easy part. The main adjustments is made during the M&G Air Cylinder installation between the power brake bellows and the master cylinder. There is a threaded rod adjustment critical to the system working properly. It can be adjusted to apply your toads brakes constantly, which is bad, and the other way too little and the brakes on your car will not have a high enough pedal to stop while driving. The screw adjustment is critical and must have loctite applied when it is set correcrtly. My best advice is to find a good tech. that has installed some before. You can do it by reading the instructions, but I will not tell you it's easy to do correctly the first time. M&G lists dealers in your area.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ray, yes that small plastic line is mounted next to my electric tow car plug and has a quick connect fitting on the end.

After installing it I checked it for leaks. I routed it away from any heat and sharp spots and tied it in place with nylon ties. Where I though it might chafe I insulated it with a plastic sleeve. I see no reason why it would be any more likely to leak than a conventional brake line.

If there is a leak it will be apparent if you do a pre-trip brake check per the commercial license procedures.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I had posted a picture of these earlier but for those who did not catch it here it is again.

1736
These old style compression fittings have been updated to quick fittings like below.

1737
The first picture is a pipe thread to compression fitting.

Although I have a T fitting pictured they come in all sizes and configurations, including pipe thread to compression. They need to be used with plastic line and you simply push the line in and it's done.

To release there is a collar on the fitting that you press in and simultaneously pull on the line to remove it.

Do any of the folks with newer buses see these on them?

Every time you disassemble a air line with the old style you either have to cut off the end and shorten up the line, if it is long enough, or if not, replace the line with a new one of acceptable length.

With these quick fittings you can reuse the same line and retain its original length over and over and over.:cool:

They are fast, you never have to wonder about over or under tightening and don't need to do the double wrench routine in close quarters where it is a pain or to keep from twisting the line.

[MangoMike]

I stand corrected, and should have paid more attention when Jon had AirBoard 2.0 on display rather than throwing spitballs at Trukman.

I guess I was thinking about the air lines to the Norgren valves.

Mike

[jonnie]

MM,

Have you been into the Pinga again and making those Brazilian drinks for your customers? BTW they were way to good!

[lewpopp]

Mr Horner,

You have a coupleof neighbors that have M&G systems. If I wasn't so busy in cardiac rehab and putting up with politics here in the park, I would have been around to answer.
. Talk to me!
I've heard a lot of good things on the M&G and is really a simple looking appliance.

They didn't have an application for my saturn Vue and I don't think they have an application for what I am purchasing. Talk to me !!! Get your golf cart out of storage and get back to normal.

[truk4u]

Lew,

Are you back in FL?

[Jim_Scoggins]

Do any of you all have the M&G brake system on a Jeep Liberty?
If so, does it live up to expectations?

[Jim_Scoggins]

I had an M&G system installed on my Jeep (Diesel) Liberty. Almost turned on the low money warning light.

I will be taking the coach there at the end of January to complete the coach part of the installation.

Great professional installation by B&G Auto and Marine, Stevensville, MD. This guy (Gary) seems to be able to fabricate almost anything auto, marine, or tooling.

Anyway, I have a couple of pictures of the completed installation should anyone need them.

In hindsight, due to the easier changability from one vehicle to another Jon's system might be the better choice.

[Darl-Wilson]

Like Jon I have a Brakemaster. The best price was at JC Whitney (http://www.jcwhitney.com/RV-Towed-Vehicle/600016484.jcw). You can also find coupons (http://www.meancoupons.com/jcwhitney/)for another $40.00 plus free shipping, no tax AND this price includes the Break-Away kit.

I had a local shop run the air line from the bus valve to the rear of the bus and I installed the rest on my Honda CR-V. I also installed the aux air tank on the CR-V with the break-away switch. When ready to travel, connecting to the bus and connecting the brake cylinder to the pedal may take a total of 2 minutes. I am getting ready to install a 2nd set of hardware to enable a move of the brake cylinder to our 2008 Honda Accord. That kit only costs $120.00 and now I have a toad brake system in two cars for about the price of one. They work great, do not lock up and will not set off the "Low Money" warning light.

The best thing about this whole deal is that I know I am legal (along with my class B) and shouldn't have a problem if I have an accident or get stopped by law enforcement.

[1carguy]

I notice that many people now are using an auxiliary brake system on their toads. Is there any state statute that actually requires this? I am on my 10th coach since the late 80's and have towed 25-30,000 miles per year since then. I have yet to have had an experience where I thought that having an auxiliary brake on my 3800 lb. jeep would help stop my 52,000 lb Prevost. My experieence has been that unless I look at the back up camera I do not even know that it is back there. Am I missing something?

[jack14r]

I went to google and entered state towing laws,there are several sites with the requirements,most states require toad brakes.I added the M and g brake system recently with the breakaway,I can't tell much difference,but I am now legal.

[gmcbuffalo]

There was a website by one the aux brake people that showed the stopping distance difference between aux brakes and no brakes. There was quite a differences, now it was not a 52,000# prevost but a GMC.

Greg

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Car guy.

I pull a full size P-U without brakes. Can I do it safely? 99.9% of the time. However I have no control over that other guy. I drive for a living and still, doing it keeps me up in the seat, don't like it.

Can I pull it w/o brakes on a good day, absolutely. In an emergency such as a panic stop having 4000lbs+ on the hitch with brakes will give you that noticible difference your currently having a hard time experiancing.

I might pull smaller stuff w/o brakes comfortably, The beetle, a Mini cooper.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I never used aux braking until we started towing the H2. The chicken in me says that if some jerk pulls in front of me and then hits the brakes, if I have the aux braking installed at least the lawyer suing me will not be able to prove I was negligent.

[Darl-Wilson]

I notice that many people now are using an auxiliary brake system on their toads. Is there any state statute that actually requires this? I am on my 10th coach since the late 80's and have towed 25-30,000 miles per year since then. I have yet to have had an experience where I thought that having an auxiliary brake on my 3800 lb. jeep would help stop my 52,000 lb Prevost. My experieence has been that unless I look at the back up camera I do not even know that it is back there. Am I missing something?

Car Guy, I hope you are not missing your 3800lb Jeep! Using your logic we wouldn't buy life insurance because we have never died or replace worn brakes on our bus because they have never failed. I don't mean to be harsh but there is conclusive proof that your bus will indeed stop in a shorter distance with brakes on your Jeep. Imagine if it only stopped 50' less when your had to make an emergency stop on a congested freeway. That could mean the difference between life and death for anyone stopped in front of you. The other thing you may be missing is the safety factor included in most of these system's breakaway switch. Your toad could be a 2 ton missile if it became dislodged from your coach.

I believe you have the freedom to do whatever you want that might endanger your life but you do not have that same right when it comes to me and my family. I don't mean to lecture you Car Guy but I do think if you do a little more investigation you will find that installing a braking system with a breakaway switch will give you some peace-of-mind, avoid potential legal problems and protect other motorists in the event of an accident.:)

Darl

[Ray Davis]

This link on the Roadmaster Tow Bar site includes a summary of various state laws regarding aux brake systems.

http://www.roadmaster-tow-bars.com/laws.php

As you'll see many states require aux brake systems, depending upon the vehicle weight. I have just a little Honda Civic behind me, but as Jon mentioned, if something happens, I'm not going to be sued because I didn't have one, as required by my state.


Ray

[1carguy]

OK - I still think the marketers of these devices are doing a great job confusing people with the requirements for towed trailers as opposed to towed vehicles. I know that based on my experience with RV's since the late 80's aux. brake systems are definitely not used by the majority of motorhome people towing cars. I suppose once I spend the dollars necessary for a system and go through the trouble of installing it I will become a big proponent of the systems also due to this investment. I can see that it could help minimize liability.

Anyhow, I trade cars often and do not want to make expensive personalizations to a tow car and I am not at all excited about someone tapping into my air system. There is more than enough leaks in a prevost air system without adding another joint.

I guess with the above in mind is there a brake system that I should look at?

[Ray Davis]

I guess with the above in mind is there a brake system that I should look at?

For similar reasons, I got a Even Brake system from Roadmaster. There's no permanent connection into the towed vehicle's braking system. It just sits on the front floor, and get's clamped in place.

I will admit, it's a bit of a pain, but I am more concerned with legality, rather than how much it affects braking. It does come with a brake-away system, which will stop the towed car in the event of a hitch failure.

The one thing is that it expect to tap into your brake lights to verify that it's applying brakes when it thinks it is. I would imagine that would be easily setup in a non-invasive way.

Certainly not the best world, but if you don't want invasive solutions, this is darn easy.

Ray

[Darl-Wilson]

Guy, here is a link to JC Whitney (http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2012795/p-2012795/Ns-p_MIN_PRICE|1||p_Product.LONGDESCRIPTION.sort/N-111+10201+600016485/c-10101) which I found to be the least expensive for the "BrakeMaster", especially when you use their $75.00 coupons. I have this set-up on my Honda CR-V and plan to install it on my new Honda Accord. If you use more than 1 car you do not need to purchase the activation cylinder, just a 2nd vehicle kit for a little over $100.00 (Scroll down on JC Whitney page for info).

As for tapping into the air system, that is the easy part. There is a valve near the rear of the Prevost bus that accommodates a fitting for this system. Jon W. can give the exact valve location for the connection. Takes about 1/2 hour including running the line to the connection on the rear of the bus. The most time consuming task is hooking up the "Brakeaway" system under the hood. If you want this feature for a 2nd car you will need to purchase a 2nd setup but not the cylinder. Roadmaster (http://www.roadmasterinc.com/) factory in Portland, OR ,gives 2 hours labor for installation of the complete system.

Once this is installed you may add less than 2 minutes to the connection time of attaching your toad. Outside you simply use a quick-connect for the air line and snap on the emergency disconnect to the switch. Inside it is simple to slide the connection onto the brake pedal and insert the pin on the floor attachment. The air hose connector is another quick connect. Ready to go!

Many people have the brake system described by Ray and are very happy with them. SMI (http://www.smibrake.com/Items.aspx) has a system many RVers love. I did a lot of research and asked owners of many of these devices and decided on the Roadmaster 'Brakemaster' because it suits my needs.

Good luck with whatever you decide CarGuy. You are sure at the right place to get lots of advice and opinions.

Darl:)

[truk4u]

Darl,

No beef with your comments on toad brakes, but I have a question putting aside the various state laws.

Am I a risk to society if my bus and jeep are below GCWR, verified by weight tickets, and placarded from Prevost the manufacturer to assure adequate braking and vehicle safety accompanied by a properly rated towbar with rated safety cables in place?

Just curious..:confused:

[Darl-Wilson]

Darl,
Am I a risk to society if my bus and jeep are below GCWR, verified by weight tickets, and placarded from Prevost the manufacturer to assure adequate braking and vehicle safety accompanied by a properly rated towbar with rated safety cables in place?

Just curious..:confused:

Tom, Personally I think the chance is very small that you or any experienced Prevost driver is at 'considerable' risk by not having brakes for your toad. However, if you agree with the experts that state your stopping distance will be somewhat less with brakes then without them, you would have to agree that stopping even a few feet shorter might be the difference between having a terrible accident and just having wet pants. 25 tons at even 10 miles an hour can create havoc with a Civic sandwiched between Mr Prevost and Mr 18 wheeler. Even the most careful driver can be caught in this situation. Personally I have never had a highway accident or a moving violation in the last 69 years. Call me over-cautious but I have toad brakes with a breakaway device. I think the other issue is the breakaway problem. It can and does happen but is not very likely given the hookup you described. As far as you, CarGuy, or anyone else being a risk to society, I suppose there is a modicum of risk but most of it could be to your pocketbook if there is an accident. I have $500,000 liability plus a million dollar umbrella for 2 reasons; my 20 year-old college student son with a Subaru WRX and me with a Prevost. In case of an accident in either, right or wrong, I will likely get sued. By being in compliance with the law I MAY have a chance. I don't want to literally 'drive' this issue into the ground or seem like some kind of do-gooder'. This is just my opinion. My wife and I will go anywhere with a POG caravan, braked up or not! Hope to see ya'awl in Pahrump.

[truk4u]

Darl,

Understood! We hope to venture west this year to make Pahrump as long as you left coast guys can keep this wacko under control.:eek:

1999



Cheers....