Batteries Discharging?

[phorner]

Well, it's a good thing we're still at the dealership, moving into the coach. We had our first "major" problem crop up. Naturally, It happened on a Saturday, when no one is here to help.

So, I'll toss out the symptoms, for general discussion and, hopefully resolution. If nothing else, thanks to the forum, I should at least be able to ask (more) intelligent questions on Monday.

1. The patio awning didn't want to deploy, acted like it didn't have the "oompf" to unfurl, but retracted OK.

2. The bedroom CO monitor went into alarm. Indicated the alarm was possibly due to low voltage.

3. Tank monitors stopped working. Filled fresh water tank to over-flow yet no indication on monitor.

4. Interior lights went very dim, allmost nothing at all. I'm assuming all the halogen lighting is low voltage ??

5. Started engine, after running just a few minutes, the interior lights came up. And, I had an appropriate display on the tank moitor.

So, it sounds to me that the house batteries somehow drained. Could this have caused the problem with the awning, tank monitors, CO monitor ?

The real question will be, I guess, is why the batteries discharged. We've been plugged in to shore power for the duration.

Any suggestions??

Where should we start on Monday??

Best yet, What should I require of the dealership to assure that the problem has been completely resolved ?

I would greatly appreciate some guidance. We are afraid to leave, but, at least the nightly price is right...

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

See my response. if you need to call

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Please don't call after 9:00 Getting to bed early to get Deb and Bob 00/03's new pup in Talahassee.

[phorner]

Thanks, Jon.

I checked the main electrical panel and verified that we were getting AC, since the cruise airs would work fine.

I noticed that the Heart Inverter panels (both) indicated an "overload" condition. So, I switched them off for a moment, not at the breaker but on the inverter panels, and then back on. They came back up looking "normal" and apparently started charging. I shut down nearly everything, cruise airs and all and still was showing a load of some 40 amps per line, so the chargers were apparently working as there should have been no other explaination for that high of a load.

Looking at the guages at the dash indicated that the house batteries were, in fact, coming up in voltage, as they are now at just over 13 volts and the "house amps " is showing about 150.

I'll monitor the house battery voltage and see if it stays put. If it starts to drop, I guess I can assume that either the chargers have stopped or the batteries simply won't hold a charge?

Thanks,

Paul

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

One additional thought....if you can, try to develop an understanding of the systems and how different switch positions affect the system. Liberty powers the inverters and the battery chargers on two different circuits.

The house battery charger circuits are not to be confused with the bus chassis battery charger. The two sets of batteries are not joined.

All 24V house circuits run off the house batteries such as lights, fans, Webasto, etc. These items include the things you noticed failing to function properly. You also run certain circuits through the inverters when the shore power or generator is not supplying power such as the refrig, the TVs, the outlets, etc. To maintain those batteries they should be charged any time the bus is connected to shore power or the generator is running. When the bus engine is running they are being charged automatically by the bus alternator.

It will help you a lot if you understand the system and know how to monitor the house voltages. Liberty can walk you through that.

My guess is that if you were running the TVs some AC units and the refrig you were getting shore power into the coach, but the battery charging circuits were off. With those back on everything should be OK.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

We crossed responses. I would urge you to read the inverter manual because there are features that you need to understand. It is important that you tailor the panel via the switches on the rear to your type of use of the coach. For example we are often on 30 amp service so we use the lowest charge rate for batteries. You may opt for a faster charge rate.

Glad you are back in good shape. Let the batteries get fully charged and everything will work fine.

I doubt if you have bad batteries. Liberty will not send you away with anything questionable.

[phorner]

So, they are not inverter/chargers? There are separate battery chargers that are powered via the main house breaker panel?

[garyde]

Hi Paul. I have had similar issues on my coach . The house batteries were down and out in your coach. The question is why. Did the shore power go out for a while in the neighborhood or did your inverter/charger stop working.
Those are the two essential questions.

[phorner]

You're right, Gary. The big question is WHY did the batteries fail to keep charged while connected to shore power.

We were with the coach all day, with the airs running, and sure didn't notice any loss of AC power to the bus.

But, we're almost completely moved in. So, at least there's some good news...

And, I'm hoping that the low voltage explains the other "problem" we found today.

Monday morning will be busy for the technicians...

[garyde]

The only other issue is what rate the inverters are charging.

[phorner]

Yep, that's an important issue. My old coach had a xantrex inverter and the control panel made it very easy to set up charge rates, auto gen start parameters, etc.

Doesn't look so easy with these Heart inverters.

[lewpopp]

Paul,

You must tell these guys that you are at Marathon Fl. and not at Liberty. This a very important piece of the puzzle. Jon thinks you are in Stuart at Liberty.

I have not heard anything about the PDI process that everyone insists on before leaving the lot. Paul, PDI does not mean "Put Diesel In".

This coach is a lot higher tech than my vintage. Good luck. None of these guys will let you down.

[phorner]

Very good point, Lew. So far, the PDI process has been going well. The coach had a good once-over by the staff here at Marathon, and they're responding to any and everything that pops up as we are using/living in it.

Of course, this just HAD to occur on a Saturday, just to make my weekend a challenge....

But the good news is that so far, after turning both inverters off, then back on, the batteries have charged and appear to be staying up.

The morning will probably tell the tale....

Of course, I'd much rather have it display these symptoms when the tech's are here to check things out.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

OK, I thought you were at Liberty Paul. I don't know how your house batteries are. Check their age and if they are approaching 5 years they might be nearing the end of life. I don't think your problems were due to a battery failure, but a failure to keep them charged.

Specifically the Liberty panel is set up with separate 120V circuit breakers for the inverter and battery charger. All four switches have to be on. Plus the switch on the small panel has to be on.

The small panel will verify AC power in, and it will tell you the battery voltage and the charge rate. It sounds like you had shore power on both legs but maybe the battery charger circuit was off or something needed to be reset in the Heart panel.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

You mentioned your overload light was on. This has happened to us too. Very simply the inverter on ours is not capable of running everything that is wired through it simultaneously. Like the toaster and microwave together or other similar scenarios. When we error the overload light comes on and we have to reset. Our battery charger also will not function with the overload light on. It is a Heart 2000.

On ours we have to watch the inverter amp. gauge and keep it under 22 or so.

There is also a circuit breaker on the inverter itself. When it trips everything that is wired through the inverter will not work.

[phorner]

Thanks for everyone's input and help. After turning the Heart inverter panel switches off, then back on, the batteries appeared to be charging based on the load displayed on the panel.

This morning, all guages read normal, and the house battery voltage is 13.5 volts, so this looks good.

So, it would appear, that the problem was a failure of the battery chargers to charge the batteries at some point. The dealership confirmed last week that the batteries had been load tested and appeared fine.

Next, I'm going to check to see if the full battery charge "resolves" the other symptoms that I mentioned earlier.

I'll keep ya posted...

[Joe Cannarozzi]

You mentioned that you were showing 40amps on both legs with nothing on but the chargers? That is way more than our charger pulls when in full charge rate. It's more like 15amps.

I may have misunderstood. Was that 40 amps the charge rate or the draw?

[dalej]

Paul, I bet it will. These bus's like to be used, it helps keep the systems working better. If I don't use our bus for say two months or so, I always expect a little problem or two, mostly It's me though, forgetting the simple and obvious things.

[truk4u]

Paul,

I would not just accept the fact the batteries where load tested. In order to do it properly, they have to all be unhooked and checked independently. If they are Lifelines, look at the code stamped in the case near the terminals. I recently posted on how to tell the age by the code numbers. I had great service at Marathon in San Antonio, but on a 2000 Coach, if the batteries haven't been changed, your looking at a bunch of money.

Just another thought on your charging issue... If you had a loss of shore power even for a micro second, the inverters would kick in and if you had lots of heavy loads going, you could get the overload problem.

[phorner]

That's a very good point. I wasn't here for the battery test, so I don't know first hand how it was done.

Another quick question, what exactly does the "DC amps" guage on the Heart inverter panel indicate? Is this the rate of charge for the inverter/charger? Or, the DC load that the inverter is handling?

[dalej]

DC or direct current is the amps that are being pulled from you house batteries. Has nothing to do with the AC side of your bus.

[CAPT MOGUL & Sandy]

Paul, make sure the green light is blinking on the inverter remote, that indicates charging, on ours. When we purchased our 1997 Royale ( used ) we couldnt keep the house batterys charged. Long, long story, but after the pros couldnt find the problem I discovered a 2/0 cable in the electrical/battery bay had never been crimped from the factory. I had my hand checking for a warm wire and discovered it. Removed the schrink tubing and the lug fell off. Lots of fretting and heat over the years. New lug and crimp and things are working fine. I BET IT DROVE THE PREVIOUS OWNERS NUTS. Invest in an laser thermo gun, my Raytek costs $75.00. Check wires, tires, bearings, exhaust, etc. ED

[phorner]

Just when everything was looking up, for no apparent reason, we lost all incoming AC power. Zilch. Nada. I checked the main breaker (on the bus, in bay 1) and it was OK. I turned it off, then back on, to no avail. Still no incoming AC. Can't figure out why.

So, Day 2.... living by generator power

Just what I was looking forward to....

And, the absolute worst part, the Bose surround sound system, (that they took half the living room apart to fix by replacing a fuse on the circuit board on the sub-woofer/amp, which is buried under the sofa) is now dead again.

Looks like we're gonna be here a LONG, LONG time.....

Tune in tomorrow for another episode.....

[garyde]

Hi Paul . In the 1st bay on drivers side is a power switch. It Switches from the 30 amp outside plug to the 50 amp cord plug. Make sure that swtch is switched all the way to 50 amp. I have accidently knocked against that switch and switched it to 30 amp( turning everything off) Also, make sure the Breaker in that same box is in the on position. Then check your circuit breaker and plug at the power pedestal.

[MangoMike]

Paul,

Gary's post may solve your problem, if not:

Down in the electrical bay (on the '97 Liberty) there is a couple of timed relays that delay the switching of power from shore to generator and battery.As I recall these are in one of the power boxes. These relays simply plug into a socket and are very easy to replace. I had one of the these relays go bad and was unable to switch over from generator to shore power. On the 97 both relays are the same and can be switched to determine if one is bad. Unfortunately I don't have access to the Liberty otherwise I would post a pix. This may not be your issue, but it's one I would certainly check.

Hang in there as it takes a while to work all the bugs out and to figure out what does what. The good news is that with every fix and problem you are expanding your bus knowledge, which will serve you well down the road. We've all been there, except for Lew.

MIke

[Jon Wehrenberg]

First, if there is a high charge rate selected for the inverter/chargers the shore power circuit will be overloaded if the bus is running other heavy loads like ACs etc. Check for power at the outlet.

I suspect a high draw popped the shore power breaker. That is why I suggest setting the charge rate based on how the bus is used.

If there is power at the outlet, the breakers cannot necessarily be visually checked for tripping if the ones in question are the big red ones. Also those big red ones are usually for DC. They cannot be pushed in with your thumb unless you are very strong. I have to use a screw driver. The ones in the front top of the first bay may be OTR breakers. This is a hard place to diagnose without photos.

Paul....always start at the beginning when looking for a problem such as the outlet and follow it until the failure is located.

[phorner]

Well, as daylight dawned, we found out some positive things. The generator will run all night without a hiccup. I now have learned how to place the generator in the "Auto Start" mode.

Come to find out, we did, in fact, trip a breaker that fed our power pedestal. There is only a single 50 amp receptical at the pedestal, and I was not able to determine if we had power there last night.

So, the "no AC power to the bus at all" problem was resolved. The staff here also acknowledged that they have been having power problems on site due to current construction. Everything ran fine all day with 3 airs running and all the routine electrical loads.

Seems also that the other reported problems were, indeed, related to low battery voltage, since there has been no re-occurance now that the batteries are fully charged and staying that way.

More good news.... the surround sound system is alive and well, the LCD HDTV is working beautifully and the beer in the fridge is ice cold.... things are definitely looking up!!

Tonight I'll "test drive" the Jenn Air electric grill with a couple of steaks and see how that works out.

Thanks so much for everyones input and recommendations. It really helped to know that I wasn't "alone" trying to deal with all the "challenges".

I'll keep ya posted and yeah, I know, post pictures....

[merle&louise]

[QUOTE=phorner;17745]Well, as daylight dawned, we found out some positive things. The generator will run all night without a hiccup. I now have learned how to place the generator in the "Auto Start" mode.

Come to find out, we did, in fact, trip a breaker that fed our power pedestal. There is only a single 50 amp receptical at the pedestal, and I was not able to determine if we had power there last night.

So, the "no AC power to the bus at all" problem was resolved. The staff here also acknowledged that they have been having power problems on site due to current construction. Everything ran fine all day with 3 airs running and all the routine electrical loads.

Seems also that the other reported problems were, indeed, related to low battery voltage, since there has been no re-occurance now that the batteries are fully charged and staying that way.

More good news.... the surround sound system is alive and well, the LCD HDTV is working beautifully and the beer in the fridge is ice cold.... things are definitely looking up!!

Tonight I'll "test drive" the Jenn Air electric grill with a couple of steaks and see how that works out.

Thanks so much for everyones input and recommendations. It really helped to know that I wasn't "alone" trying to deal with all the "challenges".

I'll keep ya posted and yeah, I know, post pictures....


NOW WE'RE HAVING FUN:D

It will all come together Paul, you'll look back at the last few days and laugh one day. Congratulations and enjoy that new bus!

[VegasDogMan]

I'll throw in my two cents... If batteries are severely discharged they will OVERLOAD the charger unless you limit charge current. By selecting the 5A setting on my Heart Freedom 25 Inverter/charger I can then Limit my charge current and get my dead batteries back to life... may take a day or two.

Read your Charger Manual... The Freedom Inverter Charger manual describes this specifically.


Can't say I know everything about inverters but I've been studying the action of my Inverter/chargers all summer while dry camping, running on generator, running on 15A, 20A, 30A, power cheater and 50A service. If you can understand how to limit the charge current of your inverter/charger or turn off chargers you can run the necessities on most any power.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I think this is an excellent topic to explore in detail with Nick at his seminar in Branson. It impacts all of us, and the only differences between converters is how we control the charge rate.

I can say I have the greatest versatility on my coach with the lower charge rate setting, but that all depends on how we use our coaches. It may not work for others, especially if you rely on auto-start and do a lot of dry camping.

[phorner]

I completely agree that a seminar regarding battery maintenance and the care and feeding of our inverter/chargers would be of significant value.

I've attended similar seminars at rally's in the past and all were quite informative. Still trying to study up on the Heart Freedom inverters in the Liberty. I definitely want to be able to control the rate of charge, as this greatly impacts the electrical loads being handled at any given time.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Paul,

Don't give up on your quest for knowledge. Everyt one of us has probably gained the knowledge we need to get the most out of our coaches by first having a problem and then trying to sort things out.

You are now being exposed through practical experience the art of power management. I doubt if you will ever have issues again once you get it all sorted out.

Those of us that have not had problems still don't know what we don't know.

[MangoMike]

First, if there is a high charge rate selected for the inverter/chargers the shore power circuit will be overloaded if the bus is running other heavy loads like ACs etc. Check for power at the outlet.


Paul....always start at the beginning when looking for a problem such as the outlet and follow it until the failure is located.

It's always the smartest guys who have the simplest answers.

Jon hits the nail square again.

Good job.

Mike