Propane Injection

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I'm gonna throw this out there for discussion.

Just got some info as follows

They suggest 25% propane(liquid) to 75% diesel ratio.

We have a 250 gal. diesel tank so in order to get an equivalent capacity of propane so as to run both fuel sources empty from full simultaneously, at a 25% rate we would need 65 gal. of propane. It is 4.64 pounds to the gal. for propane so it would take a 300lb tank to hold 65 gal., to cover a full load of diesel. Since we never run till empty a 150 or 200 lb tank would be sufficient. Don't know how big that is, but I'm gonna look into it.

This fella told me a gentleman in Wis. with a 12 liter. Cat went from 6.5 to 12.9 with a 25 to 75% mixture. Also a OTR trucker customer estimated he saved 14000 bucks last year in fuel costs. They also boast of 20% gains or better in HP while simultaneously lowering engine temps. by 5 to 10%.

The tank could be mounted in our P/U, our toad, in the front of the bed under the cap if too large for a bay?

Thinking out loud. Currently 250 gal fuel tank at 5mpg gets us 1250 miles. If we add an additional 65 gal of propane for a new combined fuel capacity of 315 gal it could potentially get us 3000+ miles and the propane is also less per gal., currently 2 bucks.

At 2.77 a gal. it is currently 700 bucks for 250 gal. of diesel +130 for the 65 gal. of propane=830 bucks to go say 3000 miles= 28 cents a mile for fuel.

Currently it would take 600 gal. of diesel at 5 MPG and at 2.77 a gal that comes out to 1662 dollars or 55 cents a mile. If their predictions on the increases in mileage are correct that would be a 50% decrease in fuel costs per mile.


Is this worth looking into?

He told me they were interested in setting up a DD 2-stroke, I suggested our bus as a test platform, he was receptive.

What say you?

http://www.fireemup.com/magnum

[hhoppe]

Joe: Early on in this forum we had an extensive discussion about propane injection. I found a site of an outfit that sells the gear to inject it ahead of the turbo. I'll try and search it out. They were not talking the percentage of gas to diesel you indicate. I'm interested in your findings.

http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/home.html

[Just Plain Jeff]

This has been discussed before.

What comes to mind is the following: Because the propane burns so clean, it 'gooses' the engine, and hence should only be utilized when the engine is at full throttle; and then for a short period of time. (More horsepower=More heat). The air-to-fuel mix is critical in this application and any installation should be controlled at a predetermined RPM.

What we gathered from a discussion of techs was that a badly or uncontrolled burn of a propane injection mix with diesel fuel can result in blown pistons (at least)...especially in a 2-stroke engine.

Now my memory of the postings and subsequent discussions is vacant and try it in your coach at your own risk.

Suggestion: Just for giggles, call your local DD franchisee and see what they tell you.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, This is just some random thoughts that are falling out of my head without the benefit of facts.

Propane has less BTU content per unit of volume than does diesel fuel. I have no idea what it is, but my antenna goes up when someone starts talking about fuel issues and savings. I don't know the BTU content per dollar but that is the number that will prove or disprove the allegations about MPG or cost per mile.

Depending on the engine and how the fuel delivery is controlled you can burn a wide variety of fuels and the controls adjust the amount of fuel entering the cylinder, and the timing of that event. Those two factors will influence the combustion or the rate at which the fuel burns while it produces power.

I'm not sure your mechanical engine would handle a mix as you describe without some modifications. A computer controlled engine may be able to handle it without any. For example the DDEC engines can adjust a lot of the factors for each power stroke such as the amount of fuel introduced, when it is introduced and possibly the duration of the fuel charge.

As a practical matter I would give the claims the sniff test. I have a hard time imagining a trucker filling up his diesel and then running around trying to find a bulk supplier of propane to fill his propane tank.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Thanks for the replies. I'll see if I can find the previous threads.

This is for now really a curiosity at best.

For discussion sake:

Jon many fuel stops now have propane. The trucker could be regional, or have a dedicated run and fuel at home, same place, every time. Not that uncommon. Almost all Flying-J have propane. I'll bring up the mechanical pump to them, have to tend to agree with your comments about the non-computer motor issue.

Our 8-v has 120000 on it and it will be rebuilt in the next few years anyway, if you get my drift.

I'm sure he eluded to cooler operating temps.

Any one else.

[Jerry Winchester]

If it was such a wonderful deal, with the cost of fuel as it is, wouldn't it be everwhere? It isn't because it isn't worth doing. This has been going on since I was a kid and it I've seen it rigged up on a JD 4020. Someone needs to go back to worrying about prepetual motion.

[garyde]

Cleaner fuel and used in many fleets but still an impractical fuel for Bus use I think. We had a discussion regarding bio fuels some time back and the discussion was always where to get enough fuel to make it practical. With Natural Gas it sounds more like how to integrate the Tank and the delivery system into an existing coach. I am sure there are a thousand patents out there for such things but are they practical for the leisure traveler.

[hhoppe]

I would suggest you read the two sites shown on the first two posts of this thread before offering your non experianced opinions. As far as finding propane, allmost every other RV park have a propane filling station.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Please note what the link says: Fits All Ford, Dodge and GM Turbo Diesel Engines

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Those are computer controlled engines. Joe has a mechanical engine.

In the case of the vehicles shown the propane is injected into the intake air as a vapor. Since that displaces the air used in combustion the computer to sense the combustion event is almost necessary. One issue everybody ignores in this conversation is the amount of work being performed is directly related to the BTU content of the fuel. There is no silver bullet.

My concerns about availability of propane relate more to the dance required to fill the diesel at the fuel island and then heading to another section to wait for grandpa to fill the propane on his fifth wheel.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

A little off topic but interesting.

I found this while researching this subject.

Thought it would be interesting to all those who run diesel pick-ups.

http://members.shaw.ca/k2pilot/Propane%20article.html

[hhoppe]

Jeff: I hate to break the news to you but our Series 60's are GM Turbo Diesels. The article joe posted dealt with the larger units, where we are. Most of the city busses in the SF Bay area run on natural gas. Don't poo poo the idea just yet.
Get a Bus and join the fun.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

So far I have been told of 3, two-stroke, DD that have it.

Two by what I feel a very credible source, but with literally no details accept for one of them was a charter in Australia that he rode on and spoke with the driver and one he has an e-mail address of the owner who lives out west, that he will send when he gets back home.

A third is a fellow with a 318 but his system is on demand verses constant on. I asked him why and waiting for further facts. He also specified a change in timing and a 65gal. tank, did it himself 10yrs ago. Am planning on talking with this guy further.

I have a very convenient propane dealer to fill at if I did it to the Pete. I know it is a 4-stroke but I could see if mil age goes up and fuel costs go down. There are kits for under 1000. I use currently use around 50 gal of diesel a day so if 1/4 of that needed to be propane that is 1 vertical aluminum fork truck tank very easily mounted behind the cab. The other bennies they boast are great but it is the decreased fuel costs that draw me.

I will proceed with fact finding.

This propane dealer has a diesel that has a set-up that was done by the folks in Gurnee, ill. I believe he said is is one that is constant on and uses 25% propane. Once again a 4-stroke but I am looking forward to talking with that driver this week.

[Darl-Wilson]

I really don't know what the hell I am doing in this debate because there is no way I am going to make a change to propane injection but curiosity led me to investigate. Banks (http://bankspower.com/tech_propane.cfm) has their say but it is not completely unbiased. It does address the fuel savings angle used here a justification for installing this equipment. For those POGers that might want a more funky review and instructions on building your own system(NOT ADVISED) see Mr. Sharkey's site. (http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm). He also has an interesting "Hippy-Like forum. Finally, if you really want performance try Parley Diesel Performance's Nitrous Oxide (http://www.parleysdieselperformance.com/site/988369/page/839956) injection. 300 HP gain? That's what they claim but how long will the engine last?

Enough of this fun. It's Labor Day that is exactly what I am going to do; get my 26' SeaRay ready to sell. Have a great holiday everyone!

[MangoMike]

Unless you want to be a permanent member of the TBC (two bus club) you have to ask yourself what effect does this conversion have on resale.

Now if you're going to keep your coach until they play "When the saints come marching in" it may be a different story. But when you see Harry do an upyear then anyone is game for that next bus.

Mike

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Darl
Good site you posted. I like the electric vehicle pusher trlr. I read it and it did not mention anything about a mileage change. Looks like if you are interested in a power boost this is pretty proven. I'd like more MPG.

Mike
All the components could fit in a shoebox minus the tank. Take it off and put it on the next one. Kinda like fuzzy dice.

I know it would be nice to be the last guy in a group pulling a hill who had to downshift.

[Ray Davis]

A friend of mine with a 45 ft Hemphill (entertainer) coach indicates he's looking into nitrogen injection. Basically he indicated to me that there is some unit which bolts on, and converts water to nitrogen, which is injected and gives approximately a 25% boost in mileage on an 8V engine.

I don't know much more, but could ask for info from my friend, if you'd like?


Ray

[VegasDogMan]

Ray - don't you mean Hydrogen? There's no Nitrogen in water and nitrogen as a gas I believe is non-flammable.

[Ray Davis]

You are probably correct, although I was pretty sure he said nitrogen! But, knowing my friend, it probably was hydgrogen.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Today I spoke at length with the fellow, at Ashland propane, who purchased 4 kits and installed them. Here is what I learned.

These systems cost 1800+tank of your choice.

These are using 20% propane/80% diesel and are on constant.

After figuring out how he wanted mounting, on the first truck, the system installed on the remaining three in 2 or 3 hours per truck.

He has them on Cat motors, straight-6, 4-stroke w/turbo, smaller though, a C-6 or I think. 2002 KW intermediate sized straight trucks. The systems were installed 2003

He runs Mobil One 10000 miles and it comes out clean.

The million dollar question for me he couldn't answer. Fuel costs before and after. They have a local fleet with frequent random stops and although knowing the fleet#s they never saw the need to check mileage on any 1 truck. Since adding propane injection they draw it right off the main tank and do not meter it either. The first truck ran a 8 gal fork truck tank for a while and the driver said it would last a couple of days.

As well as increased power he observed a noticeable difference in throttle position at any given speed. He also said there is a big difference in the way the engine sounds and runs quieter and smoother.

They now run it on one of the fleet diesel P/U's as well, but only recently

The dealer has the info to apply for a 4000$ government tax credit for purchasers that they enjoyed for each of the four systems they purchased.

Just some food for thought. I am going to continue to inquire.

If we could cut our fuel costs on our Pete by just 5% we could take that savings and survive down in the Keys for a couple of months in the middle of the winter on it:o

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

Count me as a skeptic for the moment.

Assuming you intend to do this try to establish a good database. In my plane and bus I record every single gallon of fuel that has ever passed through them. I do that primarily to establish what is normal, and if anything changes it shows up right away in consumption.

Why I don't see this propane as a money saver is my belief that you cannot get something for nothing. Your diesel fuel has a specifc BTU content and that defines how much work it will do per gallon. You can increase the efficiency to an extent with driving practices and by making sure the engine is using the fuel efficiently, but in the end it is all about BTUs.

When bio-diesel came to our area the news media was all over that story like stink on a skunk. We were going to save the planet and it was cheaper. Then some smart ass reporter did a little digging and found the numbers did not work. The new fuel was not giving the same mileage as pure diesel fuel, and when the cost per mile was calculated it had actually been more expensive. The other factor was the range due to the lower efficiency of the fuel so drivers had to fuel up more often.

When you add propane you add something with less BTU content than diesel. As a result something is going to be less efficient. Now if your truck is running lean (something I would expect so the efficiency is greater) and you add a greater fuel charge to the cylinder the truck will feel more powerful, but is the work performed going to be greater than the cost to do the work with pure diesel?

Unless you have detailed data of an unmodified truck to compare to one modified, and the operating parameters are unchanged you can only guess at the results.

[Just Plain Jeff]

We did research last year about developing a POG bio-diesel program and wound up learning that the 'rack price' for same is as much or more than diesel. Despite rising costs, there was plenty of diesel around, we were told it was a distribution issue. In some countries in North Africa, diesel is 17 cents a gallon.

Used to be that diesel was a by product of gasoline production, but now it is 'built' as a separate product from crude. (Perhaps JDUB can come on this part?)

Anyway, whatever alternatives one may view, you have to look at the entire cost: Traditional diesel v. modifications, cost/benefit of alternative fuels and the potential side effects of unknown or untested alternatives.

We dropped the bio deal for a variety of reasons: Pricing, availability, limitations in use in cold weather, coach modification requirements, etc.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Repeating what I've been told/learned from conversations today.

A diesel burning straight diesel is only burning a little less than 60% of what is introduced into the cylinders. The rest goes out the stack.

Also diesel ignites at aprox300+ degrees and 25 to 1 or so compression ratio exceeds that threshold. However propane needs 500+ degrees to ignite so it is only the additional heat from the diesel ignition that then ignites the propane.

The end result is the propane ignites additional diesel and it gets more completely burned, I'm told more like 85 or 90% ignited instead of 60%

That would be a source of additional BTU's.

If I were currently running a 4-stroke engine in the bus I would want it just for the horsepower gains and corresponding bragging rites. Know one seems to be disputing these characteristics. I'd hook it to an on/off switch if no improved fuel mileage.

Talked to a gentleman up in Wis. today and we/he did some math and suggested my fuel cost per mile would go down from 56 cents to 47, about a 16% savings.

If work wasn't so slow this year I would be able to put this question to rest real fast cause I would have already ordered one of these kits. If I find I'm wrong I could very easily peddle it to any one of a number of friends with diesel P/U's.

!0 years ago I started running super-singles(tires) on my semi trlr. VERY FEW had them. Lotta people questioned it, its a dump trlr and many didn't trust putting one in the air without the security of the duel tires. Now there are many.

Some time ago I also installed a lift bag on the front of the two trlr axles so when empty I've only the rear axle with 2 trlr tires on the ground, many thought it looked weird. Added to all the cost savings and less stress on suspension components that I initially considered tolls have about tripled. Every time I go through a booth empty with it up that's 1.25$

Thought that these MOUSE TRAP looking mesh tarps that you see frequently on dump trlrs were worthless, especially in the wind when you need them most. Switched to a roll tarp with a motor designed for grain trlrs. The loaders don't care for this one, too many bows in the way. Ask someone following one of the other types on a windy day what they think.

I may be wrong on this one but I'm gonna find out.

Uncle Sam credits you 50 cents at the end of the year for every gal of propane you burn. There is currently an alternative fuel tax of 40 cents a gal. on propane so in effect this eliminates its tax and would be lowering the cost of fuel another couple of cents a gal.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, the key to complete combustion of fuel in an engine is the fuel to air ratio and the timing of the initial spark or flame. In my plane engine I am running a fuel / air mixture that is so lean all the fuel is burned. I can duplicate the performance by adjusting the mixture to run richer, but it will cost 3 more gallons of fuel per hour. My point is that if 40% of the fuel is unburned then I would conclude the ignition of the fuel is too late and raw fuel is ending up in the exhaust, or you lack sufficient air to complete the combustion.

Introducing Propane may make less air for combustion available, or it may alter the timing of the combustion event so more burns in the cylinders and less in the exhaust.

I would pursue this further with people that really know, and not people trying to sell something or justify the fact that they bought a system. I would want hard data, along with a better understanding of specifically how more fuel being introduced results in less consumption. This may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or it may be BS.