Non-Sponsor Participation

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I have observed that our webmaster or site owner has kept non-sponsor companies from posting or participating on our forums and in our seminars at rallies in the past.

It is my opinion that as a business enterprise the owner has the right to make and enforce rules as he sees fit. But with our growth as a group, and with so many technical topics that are likely to be of interest I am wondering how we as a group and how the webmaster can get all of the needs met. Let me cite a few examples.

I have posted that I wished Prevost and the converters would read our forums and post answers to questions when appropriate. My guess is that could be accomplished if they were granted membership in POG. They don't have to be a sponsor under that scenario, but they do have to pay up just like everyone else. The benefit to us is we get answers from the very folks that engineered our conversions or the bus. The benefit to the converters or Prevost is they get to hear exactly what their customers are saying about them and the product.

Here is another scenario. Allison, Detroit, and Michelin are unlikely sponsors, but I would be very happy to have each of them put on a technical seminar and maybe even be available at a rally for service. I can't see them being POG members or sponsors, but the benefit to POG to have them participate in rallies with us would be tremendous.

To Jim and Jeff and all POG members....what are your thoughts. We are getting bigger and as such we will be able to have situations such as the above much more likely in the future. In the past it may have made sense to freeze out non-sponsors or non-members but I think the momentum on the sites makes them attractive to sponsors and inviting potential sponsors or even technical gurus to our rallies and forum only increases the POG membership and forum participation.

Just thinking out loud here.

[MangoMike]

I guess I'm a little surprised. I thought that was one of the key selling points about joining POG was the access to technical information (other than Jon).

We don't want someone on POG trying to sell us something (unless of course it's Jerk Chicken) but I for one would like them to share their knowledge and experience if we have an issue. I would think that some of their information would be so helpful that they should be given a membership for free - easy for me to say it's not my site. :)

I think that if this knowlege based is increased by their participation it would help sell POG memberships.

Mike

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I don't want my interests misunderstood so let me be more clear. I am asking if there is a way we can get participation of non-sponsors to provide us as members with seminars at rallies or technical advice via the forum.

I do not want either of these two venues to be for sales pitches. In fact at Kerrville I was not pleased to have a sponsor there pushing his products on me while I was cleaning the outside of the coach. I am strictly suggesting that those with expertise we can benefit from accessing be enabled to provide that expertise.

If someone wants to sell something, then I think it is perfectly appropriate to require they sponsor these web sites, and if at a rally make a distinction between selling (such as displaying a coach or products) and teaching (being a generic technical presentation). BTW, lets imagine XYZ converter has 20 coaches owned by POG members at Branson. Lets imagine further that XYZ converter does not sponsor or advertise on these sites. But XYZ is willing to put on a seminar for the owners of its conversions. It is my position that we should try to make that happen because 20 POG members may get some valuable technical information about their coaches. Now if XYZ wants to display a coach and do a little selling in the evenings, then maybe there needs to be some payment to the website owners. That is why I would like to see this discussion.

To repeat, these are privately owned sites whose purpose is to make somebody money. We benefit because we get much more than $100 worth of knowledge and advice. We can get much more advice and knowledge because there are a lot of manufacturers, small businesses, and experts that are not sponsors and probably will not become sponsors but who have a lot to offer us. In exchange, they get exposure.

If Michelin were to put on a seminar, for example, maybe we would learn why the King and I (wasn't that a play or a movie?) shouldn't be riding on Chinese tires. Or why we should.

[Just Plain Jeff]

We've always been open to welcoming any parties who are willing to provide information that would be useful to POG members. That being said, not everyone seems to, 'get it.'

Let me share an example.

We have nearly 2,000 registered members on the Prevost-stuff.com forum. Let's see, if you do a little math, it's likely that at least half of them have a coach. So, if each of those owners buys new tires (scribble, scribble) every five years, that equals the number of tires that Prevost Car buys from Michelin every year.

We've talked to Michelin about stopping by, talking about tires or the funny guy they have in their commercials or anything else. Instead of doing that, they have listed the sites as 'preferred customers.'

Go ahead and scratch your head, my hair is all but gone.

When we are contacted by an outfit, if it brings benefit to the membership, they are invited to participate in any fashion that is helpful to the group. When we see someone who may also be helpful, we reach out to them.

So, we've gone through the list at least a few times and always invited the usual suspects, some show up others don't.

Guess the problem here is this: If they get more sales, then it may affect their projections, which they have to justify to their managers. Then they have to make an extra trip to the bank and add new accounts to their ledgers. Not only that, it would make corporate jobs different than they were before they changed the way that they worked, and we certainly wouldn't want them to have to do that now, would we?

If you look at POG membership, it is made up largely of people who have common sense (choke, choke) and are results-oriented. I am sorry to report that the rest of the world doesn't always work that way.

But, over time, we'll get more folks involved. Maybe we should be nicer to new people on the public prevost-stuff board?

Since Mike Kerley wrote a wandering dissertation on home generators, I get to write this long posting.

[hhoppe]

I think we as members can promote our existance to the people in the industry we want to hear from the same as we promote our group to every non member driving a Prevost. When attending other rallys that Prevost, Converters and other vendors related to our mechanical parts attend we should button hole them to contact Jim for a way to become involved.
We operate our group in a strange way with no monthly updates as to number of members. Were getting close to POG4 and no mention of how many coaches are signed up. How can we promote our group with out these basic numbers to work with.
I contacted Goodyear truck and bus tire division and expressed a desire to hear from them at one of our rallys and asked them to contact Jim Skiff and discuss the posibilities of hearing the merits of their tires. I don't know if they made contact with Jim.

[Ray Davis]

When we are contacted by an outfit, if it brings benefit to the membership, they are invited to participate in any fashion that is helpful to the group. When we see someone who may also be helpful, we reach out to them.

I'm sorry but I just don't believe that. Without getting into details, there were a few times when trying to plan for POG3 that we were told certain things we were planning couldn't happen because "so-and-so" was not a sponsor of prevost-stuff.

[garyde]

My electrical Association has different tiers of Sponsorship: Silver, Gold , Platnum. Those sponsers put up the majority of $$ for Convention events. There are several dozen other Companies which contribute less $$ and are called Associate Sponsors or some thing similar. At some point, it may be a good idea to check that out. Golf tournaments have similar Tiered participation.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Sponsors and non-sponsors that educate us are good. Being beholden to them limits our criticism when we become dependent on their financial contribution. If we pay our own way, including the cost of the rallies then if public criticism of a vendor or product is warranted it will not be unduly censored.

To give an example, JPJ has made some strong criticisms of Espar (think of a product like Aquahot). If they were a major sponsor do you think he would have been so public in his criticism? He and I have had this discussion.

[Just Plain Jeff]

First of all, I have never met a single person who has said, "Hey, I've got Espar heaters and just love 'em!" Secondly, if you call Espar with a problem, they start speaking some other language (assuming you get a real person, which is a different issue altogether).

The key here is that we get some people who want to show up at rallies and pitch members about their products without the benefit of any technical information or educational value. So, the critical idea is to insure that any participant at a rally is there to add something educational or of technical assistance in a seminar.

We did that: At POG III, there were four non-site sponsor participants.

At prevost-stuff, here and at the rallies, we work hard to protect the membership from unwarranted intrusions and people who think that our groups are a free ride to cash.

Ain't gonna happen on my watch.

[Jim Skiff]

On Tuesday of the Branson Rally at 1:15 or so in the afternoon we have invited an non-sponsor to talk about towed vehicles. She is Teresa Ott of Ultimate Toweds LLC. When I spoke with her this afternoon, I made it clear that members would like to learn something at her seminar and that she would probably learn quite a bit from them. I also noted that none of our members are interested in a hard sell but would like to learn what vehicles can be towed unmodified, modified correctly and so forth.

I think that her experience, combined with member experience will result in something worthwhile to membership.

If you have any questions for Teresa let me know so she can prepare. She has told me that she would be interested in addressing these at POG IV.

[dreadnought]

Why aren't Prevost, Marathon, Liberty, Michelin & Crapco members of this forum? They don't want to be? The site owner won't let them? Because it costs a hundred bucks?
Or a thousand? Give me a break. What would it be worth to be able to ask a converter a question and get an answer in writing that we ALL could see. No more rumor, conjecture, he said, she said bull*#@^. You know, questions like,.. Why does it take a weeks labor to align slide pins? Or... Who's bright idea was it to make a tire size that you can't get. I wouldn't care what they did at rallies, ain't got time for em, got to work to pay for this million dollar contraption. Get em on here. I got first dibs on cross examination.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Bill I have wondered how many of those folks are here in GUEST status just listening. I'll bet there are a few.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Bill,

I know some are, and more specifically there are some who can address your questions. I cannot understand why those manufacturers or suppliers do not jump in when we try to bumble around and answer some questions.

We as owners only develop a degree of knowledge when we personally experience something on our own coaches, so when we try to help one another our perspective is limited compared to the folks that build the product. Since I doubt that Michelin or the Double Coin tire manufacturers are monitoring this I'll use that as an example. We had a lot of discussion relative to tires. I for one would have loved to have one or both start posting the reasons why their product might be more appropriate for our coaches. Would it be selling....yes, but if the selling was in the context of explaining the attributes of the product we all would have learned a lot about tires.

Is there anybody that is a member of this group that would object to someone from Prevost responding to questions or comments? All of us would benefit from those posts.

All I can say is that we as group members need to keep reminding our converters and suppliers that we want their participation in our forum, or some way to establish lines of communication that would allow information sharing. I would like it even if it were via links to the converter's or supplier's web site and their own forums limited to customers. As long as we can get the information we require. Newell has an excellent site in that respect so there is no reason our converters and suppliers can't do it.

As to the tire size issue....I'd bet that Prevost is responding to the market that insists on adding more and more weight, and that there is no readily available tire size that will get the job done. If I had your coach I would weigh it and if the individual axle weights and the side to side balance was OK I would put 315 all around. They are not sitting in stock at the local truck stop, but at least they are more common than the 365s. I would be surprised if your new Liberty front axle weight would exceed the limits for 315 tires.

[JIM KELLER]

While dealing with my KVH issue I mentioned to a senior tech that other customers were unhappy with their products. I told him someone from their company should go on our site and review some of the comments posted. As in any business the customer satisfaction level is paramont. Companies spend thousands of dollars for market research and opinion polls. He stated they were not aware of any customer satisfaction issues like I discussed. I gave them the web site address to do a little research but they said they couldnt get in.

Do we want companies like this to "get in ?" Would it accelerate our position in the marketplace ?

[rfoster]

It is very easy for me to put in my two cents worth on this subject as I am not the owner of this site. However I am of the opinion that the more support, knowledge, experience, suppliers, that this board can offer to the Prevost / SOB owners the better and stronger this forum will be. As a member of this forum I attempt to promote and encourage all bus owners that I have the opportunity to speak with to sign up into POG because of all the help I have received from the existing Members. Many times the question comes up - Are the Converters on there? Yes Sir some of em even sponsor meals at the Rallies etc.

Imagine the possibilities if we had the pertinet Tracstar, Alpine, Webasto, Kohler, DD, Allison, Prevost, Norgren, Tire Companies, Converters, Appliance, plumbing, electronics, you name it suppliers on board monitoring questions and giving good answers to questions from our members. In addition our members could praise their product or fire em up because of a stupid faulty design. ( I should say constructive criticism)

Everyone in every quality business wants a good name, good reputation, and direct customer feedback inorder to get that "repeat customer and referral business'.

I would encourage our Webmaster/ Administrators to consider a program to encourage supplier type members to participate in this forum. At last check I see the membership is over the 300 mark. If you assume that most have a bus- some have two, maybe three (too embarrassed to claim) that is a lot of LEWBUCKS in anybodies market.

Exsposure is the name of the game to sell a bus, it also applies to information, the more the we have on board to offer info, the more apt we are to receive credible info and inturn offer the feedback for these companies to improve their products and design the flaws out of the product.

Maybe that was three cents worth.:cool:

[dalej]

Let us all remember that before we can no longer see the forest because of the trees, we can always pick up a phone a call direct to the main service techs that are supposed to know. Then we can post the details or the helpful hints at least.

As a do-it-myselfer on as much as I can, sort of guy, I always call on my Prevost service guys first, or who ever I need to talk to on the different part of the conversion, e.g. wabasto, kohler, cruisair.

[dalej]

I really like to think of POG as one of my really nice tools, kind of like one that sits next to my 1 inch impact that makes taking off those 22.5 wheels and tires a snap. POG does for me what my 20 ton air over hydraulic jack does for raising the bus.

I think you just need a good assortment of good tools and POG is one of them. Lets not try to make it less or more then it is.

I log on to hdforums.com about harleys there are sometimes 1000 people logged on at once and your questions can just get by-passed in a manner of a minutes.

[merle&louise]

Just for the fun of it, I decided to call 3 truck stops at random to see if they had a 315/80 R 22.5 tire in stock. One out of the three had it. I use the 315/80 R 22.5 Load L rated at 65mph tire on my steer axle. The one they had in stock was a 55 mph tire.

My rear tires are 11R24.5 Load H rated at 65mph. All three truck stops had these tires in stock.

I guess the moral of this story is if I am going to get a flat; get it on the back tires!:eek:

Maybe I'll buy an extra 315, paint it white, and strap it down on the roof!
Louise already told me that I can't put it in the shower!:o

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I agree with Dale. This and the other site is but one of the tools available to use. Since Prevost has allowed access to pneumatic and electrical diagrams that are serial number specific I have made a lot of use of that site, and the CD we got from Jerry for parts, along with my Prevost shop manual and parts list books and I have a lot of information.

Where this site is unmatched is in the area of consumer reviews. I have learned a lot about who has good products and who supports them.

[Ray Davis]

Since Prevost has allowed access to pneumatic and electrical diagrams that are serial number specific I have made a lot of use of that site

I wasn't aware of that. Where specifically can we get that info?

Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Go to the Prevost Car site, and work your way through Parts and Service, and then Technical Publications or use this link....

http://www.prevostcar.com/cgi-bin/pages.cgi?page=publicationspage

It takes a little to get used to navigating this and you have to find the drawings specific to your coach, but this is a great resource.

[Ray Davis]

Thanks for the info!

[garyde]

It would be nice sometimes to have an authority on some of the issues discussed. But then we would be giving up our forum for another kind of Site. This is the PrevostOwnersGroup.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary,

Whenever one of our converters or suppliers or Prevost opts out of the opportunity to participate in the discussions we are forced to become the authorities. That doesn't mean we all know exactly what to do, or that we are going to start our own repairs or remodels, but our reliance on them becomes less, and other folks that are outside their "circle" like Nick and Doug to name two get our business.

We will always use the primary folks like Prevost and the converters, but as we get a lot more knowledgeable we begin to realize this stuff is not rocket science and we can better control how we want to deal with issues while protecting our wallets. Plus there is the sense of pride we get by doing or directing the work because we have learned about it.

I have never dealt with two companies like Liberty or Prevost. They are the absolute best that I have ever dealt with. But since I live miles from either I have to rely on myself or others that might be more convenient sometimes. If they participated I would be assured that whatever needs to be done is done to their standards.

[Denny]

It would be nice to have the added support of converters, manufacturers, suppliers, etc. for help, but it is ultimately us, the owners, who need to know how to fix and repair these complicated machines or to watch someone else repair and fix to make sure they know what they are doing and not selling us a bill of goods and taking our hard earned dollars.

When do you know a supplier, manufacturer or converter is lying? When there lips are moving.

Case in point: I know the above statement has ruffled a few feathers but hear me out. When I bought my 1999 Prevost Country Coach, last August, two new inverters and monitors had been installed. When I started the coach the red fault lights would come on and it showed a draw in excess of 15.5 volts on each monitor. This was checked out by service and I was told everything is ok. Here I am, a neophyte on Prevost, so I believed them. This happened every time I started the coach but would go back to normal after a couple hours of driving.

A year later my computer dash goes out. A call to Country Coach, we diagnose voltage and everything is within normal limits of the 12 volt system and checks out ok. The problem is with the computer dash. Contact the vendor, overnight it to South Carolina, comes back two days later, install it and bang, it fries a new circuit board on the dash - black screen again.

I keep getting this fault and now I fried another circuit board but everything checks out good. Since I'm having this problem upon start up, I start the engine and do a volt check and find I am getting 22 volts to the circuit board not 12. Contact Country Coach, do more checks and find a faulty voltage regulator. New regulator comes in, install it and everything is fine. Now I install the replacement circuit board and the dash is working fine. That has been a month ago, it is still working and the fault lights do not come on nor am I drawing 15.5 volts on the monitors. Again, this all happened after I questioned and believed the information I was given by the service manager was true.

At the same time, the ABS light was on and I questioned it also. Was told that means it is functioning properly; believed that lie also. After the voltage/dash situation, I did some further checking on the ABS and found a faulty sensor on the rear wheel.

Yes, we do need the suppliers, converters, manufacturers, etc. but we need to be better educated about our coaches. It is sometimes very difficult to analyze a situation over the phone and the person at the other end of the phone is at a great disadvantage listening to us describe the problem. We need to understand what we are being told.

We need all of these above resources, including POG, but we also need to be better mechanics ourselves. By using our resources, networking with others, POG, seminars, reading and asking questions, we can all gain more knowledge about our coaches and not be at someone elses mercy. At POG, it is said in JOKING "if we don't know the answer we make something up". Unfortunately, in the real world this motto does exist and we need to guard against it.

[garyde]

Jon , I call Liberty frequently and they are a great resource. Denny , what you have said is the best example of being a POG member. We always need to be able to verify the information we are given. This takes education and education comes from many different resources. I believe the input from vendors convertors and Prevost is valuable. I would be concerned however if the forum was a Q and A for them. It would take the Primary focus off of the Owners I believe.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary, Like you I don't hesitate to call Liberty or Prevost. Both have been beyond excellent in their support. However, when all is said and done I have been the sole recipient of the advice or information. Had I been able to ask my questions of them on this forum many could have benefitted from the same information.

If I were a converter, it would seem to me that by having the members of this forum know that they would get fast correct answers to technical questions (or even questions about products for sale) there would be a developing based of positive public opinion and a reduction in phone traffic because the issue encountered by one of us are likely encountered by others as well.

[win42]

Jon: In defense of the Converters not taking part in our forum and giving advice that goes to a multitude of owners opens them to great liability. Giving advice one on one only opens them up to dealing with one wrongly interpreted decision by an owner. Our members giving advice received from the converters on the forum puts a layer of responsibility between the converter and the owners. Blanket advice can go wrong in so many ways I really don't blame them for not giving it directly to our mob. Yes it would be nice to know they are reading about our problems and giving answers, but to them time is money and it would take a lot of time to separate the facts from the BS with this forum. Call them with our problems and relate the solutions to the rest of us.

[phorner]

BS??? This forum???

Say it ain't so !!!

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I am in total agreement with Harry. The converters already have a way to be gotten in touch with, through their business network. Try to get a Doctor to give a diagnosis or advise over the phone. Never happen, even if you could get him on the phone. Try to get a trouble diagnosis for your car/truck from an auto dealer/service shop over the phone, never happen. They all say bring it in we'll have a look at it.

IMHO
The converters have established business that follow their original model for success and they are effected by the( if it ain't broke don't fix it maxim). For them to monitor this site to give us free advise would be expensive and counter productive to running a business for profit. I don't feel that they consider the secondary and tertiary market as a main part of their business. They want to sell new coaches and service them for the original purchaser. Anything else is secondary, and welcome, but not necessary. One might say, oh that's not so, there needs to be a place to sell all the coaches when the original owner is through with them. I say that is not as important as you might think. There are many that would still buy a bus if they knew they would get zero for it when they no longer wanted it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

While I understand Jim and Harry's comments, and cannot disagree, there is another side to the coin. Jim Scoggins posted recently about running the rack. I think the information I gave was reasonably accurate about how much effort was involved to disassemble the rear cabinetry, and the questionable benefit of going to the effort.

Others apparently agreed. But, there are only three people that are truly qualified to respond to Jim: Prevost, Detroit Diesel, and Liberty.

If Jim calls them and gets an opinion from them we learn nothing unless Jim is kind enough to post his story.

If a lawyer were to participate in this forum his posts would not be legal advice, and if a doctor would offer an opinion on someone's ailment I suspect that would not come close to the level of an office visit nor expose him to any liability. There are doctors, lawyers, mechanics, etc. offering advice all day long in columns in newspapers or on Oprah.

But I'm also OK if we do not get active participation from anybody but members (being retail buyers of conversions). We are developing a good base of knowledge and I think those seeking the knowledge understand we are not professionals but owners like them.

[win42]

Hey Jon: You got me convinced, now all we have to work on is the converters, Detroit, Allison and Prevost AKA Volvo. Not to mention our webmasters offering them free access to this website to respond to our needs and questions. You want new members coming in droves, just work in what Jon is talking about and you will have them.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Harry, et al,

I am not lobbying for anything the webmasters do not want. This is their business. I easy and no matter what shape this forum takes I'm happy because it has already developed into an amazing group of great people ready to help each other.

See you in Branson. We can debate all the issues, such as which orange looks better, TN or OSU.

[rfoster]

No Question-- Tennessee!- Home of the Metal/OSB bargain Bus lot.