Steering Rod End Replacement

[VegasDogMan]

Just had oil changed and coach lubed and during the inspection it was determined that the rubber seals on both ends of the steering rod were rotten and had partially fallen off. The Ends of the steering rod look like tie rod ends.

Are these difficult to replace? Do I need a front end alignment once they are replaced? Any special tools needed?

Don't have a Pit but am ready to get down n'dirty.

Lee Bornstein
97 Liberty 40'

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Lee I think I can give you some general info here.

All the ends on the steering components are tapered and fit into tapered holes.

First to make sure I know exactly what your refering to the rod that is hooked up to the pitman arm that is attatched to the steering box I will refer to as the drag-link. The rod that goes from one side to the other and have the tie-rods on the ends I will call the center-link.

IMHO Either way if you are only putting grease boots and reusing the same components I would not worry about an alignment and a test drive should reasonably confirm that, I've no doubt some may disagree.

Usually the way to remove these components is with a 20lb sledge. Loosten and remove the nuts and strike the corrisponding components at the hole that the ends go through. I have experianced that you normally have to hit it VERY HARD and often more than once. There is a tool called a pickle-fork to assist you if for clearance reasons you can not get a solid hit with a sledge.

Once again A VERY HARD strike. I don't usually use the pickle fork because on the truck everything is accessable and also the pickle fork WILL ruin the grease boots but since your boots are the very reason for dismantling and the drag link is in the steering bay and very possibly not easy to get a good solid hit on it you may need one. Sometimes they pop easy, usually ya gotta hit um.

Again for the drag link you will hit the pitman arm and the spindle at the top hole and for the center link you will hit the spindles at the lower hole where the tie-rods go through.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lee, The key is if your tie rod ends need replacement.

If they are tight I wouldn't bother. Keep them greased and monitor to insure they remain tight. Joe's advice on replacement is correct. Sometimes you get lucky and one good whack using a pickling fork (where did that name ever come from) and they will literally drop out.

What is vital if you opt to replace them is the installed length of the new ones has to be identical to the ones removed. Since the arm is so short relative to the radius of the tire, a 1/32" error in length can amount to as much as 1/4" impact on your toe in, requiring a new alignment.

[VegasDogMan]

The Rubber Boots on the two ends of the "Drag Link" are missing. Steering is tight and there doesn't seem to be a problem with the tie rod ends.

I've got plenty of grease on Drag Link ends.

Is it necessary to replace boots ? How long can I go without them and before I have trouble? Can a Truck service center such as Freightliner do the job reliably or do I go to Prevost?

Sounds like more work than I'm capable of doing.

Lee

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Lee

The rear of it is exposed to the elements. With-out any boot but with compramise in the form of more frequent grease, who knows, could be a long time. If you run in rain, grease that again.

I went to a local heavy truck alignment center, they did a great job and for the best price, your tire guy will help you with that if need be.

A drag link should be under 200, tie rod ends under 50. I can not remember what we were charged for the alignment on the bus and the last 2 times I did the tie rod ends on the Pete, I used a tape measure. 150 or so I'm guessin.

If it were us, with the relativly limited miles and potentially long life span if serviced correctly it would be on the list but way towards the bottom.

A little info for confidence in this area.

For example.
I grease the truck once a week, aproximatly every 2000 miles or so and it is in a very nasty envronment, a quarry. This spring a thruster bearing that rides inbetween the front axle and spindle failed and we had to do king pins. 900000+ miles and there was NO NOTICABLE WEAR on either the pins or the bushings they turn on. I have saved them like a badge of honor.

This is a combination of very well made and designed parts and proper service.

From experiance, frequency of failure on the front end goes in this order. Tie-rods then drag link. Air Bags, I have adopted Jons 10 year plan there. Grease often and king pins are forever Keep syn. oil on the wheel bearings and unless of a seal failure were I would then replace them since your there, you can go, I dare say, 500000.

We use synthetic gear lube, I pulled the hub bearings out of the rears in the Pete and replaced at 500000 cause I was concerned. They were mint.

Sorry for the long posts, I can't help it.:rolleyes:

[garylstevens]

Hey Joe, could you repeat that, I didn't get it? :D

Gary S

[VegasDogMan]

Joe:
Thanks for the info.

I'll keep pumping grease into it till December than will re-evaluate before I head off to Florida.

Lee

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Lee, whenever you grease them, pull back and forth on them or better yet start the bus and have your wife turn the steering wheel back and forth to see if there is any slop or movement. I suspect there will be none, but if any is detected, no matter how slight that is when they should be replaced. It is not a big job, but does require some precision.

Joe mentions a tape measure for toe in, but he is working on a truck with the wheels more easily accessed. We cannot get a tape across ours to measure toe in at the centerline because we have a body in the way.

[dalej]

If you can get the front tires off the ground, those big tires are great to hang on to to shake back and forth to see if there is any play in the front steer links. I found a little play in the steering worm grear this way, I got a half turn on the adjustment bolt.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Dale,

I wonder if our front end wouldn't make a good seminar topic. There are so many things that tend to be taken for granted like tie rod ends, kingpins, steering sector, etc. that it might make for an interesting subject.

[dalej]

And don't forget the little steer boot that seems to go bad quite often.

I think if we could get a compressor and some air tools, we could have a great seminar on front ends. There are quite a few that already do shocks, I think.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Branson? or is the schedule filled?

I have the design for the miniature working suspension system so we can see how the switches, solenoid pack, Norgrens, ride height valves, and air bags all work together. It won't help anybody find where the leak is that causes the leans, but it will help everyone understand the concept of the entire system on a bus. I will have it at Branson.

I can bring jacks or ramps for a front end seminar if you will do it. I'd offer to help but I know you won't need me.

[dalej]

You know somthing that I have discovered, when you keep you bus at ride height while in storage and keep a aux air compressor on to keep it that way, the aux air runs less and less. I'm just thinking that when all the air goes out of the system during storage, it lets all the rubber seals and bags release to a point that when you air the bus up, it takes awhile for all of them to seal again. Just a hunch!

I always got the leans when going out on the road after sitting in storage for some time and then seems the bus stays up better after using it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I let the bus sit down, but I keep the aux air compressor on. I rarely hear it run. I wish I had a way to tie all our experience together to draw a logical conclusion, but I think it is going to take more than anecdotal evidence from a few buses to come up with any conclusions.

One thing we all seem to share is that our problems with the leans and our air system leaks always get worse in cold weather. These buses are obviously made for good weather only.

[BrianE]

I wish I had a way to tie all our experience together to draw a logical conclusion, but I think it is going to take more than anecdotal evidence from a few buses to come up with any conclusions.

Jon,

I agree that many of our experiences are anecdotal and so would like to add to Dale's anecdotal evidence. :) I have been leaving our bus aired up when in storage and believe it contributes to system integrity. An observation of deflated airbags shows them to be severely folded and showing cracks at the folds when flat. Also allowing system valves to cycle should help prevent them from sticking. An air system seminar at Branson would be great, seems to me the air suspension system is one of the least understood of our buses innards.

[hhoppe]

Ahmen to the above proposal for an front end / air suspension system seminar. I haven't heard of a better subject on the schedule.
Brian your and Dales observations make sense to keep the bags inflated.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My air bags are deflated in storage and for the 17 years I have owned a bus I have done that. I'm not saying that is the best way to do it, but it hasn't seemed to hurt. I have changed air bags at the ten year point however so regardless of whether they suffer or not I don't wait for an air bag failure prior to replacement.

I have noticed as air bags age they get the surface cracks Brian mentions but when I replaced mine recently the cracks that were deepest and most visible were not where the bags wrinkle when deflated, but around the bottom where they roll up and down the base. Since mine were leak free when removed I contemplated retaining one of each as a spare, but after looking closely at them they all had the appearance of dry rot in the area around the bottom where they are constantly flexing. I cannot tell you that they would have failed however. All my airbags that had legible date codes were around 10 years from date of manufacture.

[hhoppe]

It has always been my understanding tires left inflated with weight on them would last longer then without. The theory of putting a car or trailer on blocks would cause the tires to rot quicker than those left with a load on them with ocasional flexing. The best way to treat the air bags is to use them often so don't miss any POG rally's and travel a lot.

[dalej]

Harry, you sure have a lot of wisdom, I'm starting to like you! ;)

[dalej]

And another thing Harry, put some of that wisdom into selling your other bus, that two bus club is starting to change you!;)

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Lee, the best way to keep after your rod ends is to have your wife grease them while you wiggle the wheel. It will be too hard for her to explain how tight or loose the ends are and since you are making the decision as to when to replace them only you can be the judge. Do it often and you will have a lot of fun working together;)
You are probably better off now without the deteriorated seals as they could have been holding dirt and moisture in and not out. Over greasing will not hurt and unless you are in a harsh environment I wouldn't worry.

You never know if you attend POG IV and have the rod end seals with you they may just get changed!