What's the best toad?

[Ray Davis]

I am thinking about giving my Honda Hybrid (current tow car) to my son, so I'm looking to pick up a toad for the bus.

I don't necessarily need anything new, and I don't want to spend a ton (I think hummers are definitely out of my price range!), but want to get something at least 2004 or newer.

I had been out at a Carmax lot, and found a nice BMW suv (X-3), which I later found is not towable. This started a bit of a search to find that many cars are not towable. Stopped at a Toyota lot yesterday, and salesman indicated Toyota doesn't recommend towing any of their cars.

In look at car websites, none of them seem to make it easy to find out what is and what is not 4-wheel towable.

So, I' thought I'd ask here. What is the best toad? What do you tow, and why do you like it?

I did find that Saturn indicates all of their cars (except the little sports car) is 4-wheel towable. The Vue kinda looks like an options. (By the way, there was a used H2 on the lot. 2005 with 10,000 miles for $45k. Now why would they get rid of a Hummer with only 10,000 miles?)


Ray

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

(By the way, there was a used H2 on the lot. 2005 with 10,000 miles for $45k. Now why would they get rid of a Hummer with only 10,000 miles?) Ray

The color of the Hummer didn't match their new Liberty Elegant Lady??: :eek: :confused:

Ray if you are an FMCA Member, go to their website, they have the last 6 years of Towables... http://www.fmca.com/fmcmag/towing/index.asp

Very Good Place to start.

I think I will start there for a Toad,.... when ever Peg lets me get a bus to pull it? :( I know, ... don't even say IT !

Gary S

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ray,

The options available to you are almost endless. As Gary posted the FMCA magazine has all the vehicles that do not require modifications, but with the Remco kits almost any car made can be flat towed.

Since you will not customarily deal with snow I think any 4WD would be a waste of money, so if you want an unmodified towable vehicle you are looking at some manual transmission vehicles, or the rare few like some Hondas, the Saturns, and some Chevy models that can be towed with automatics without restrictions or modifications

Personally, regardless of whether I ever see another snow flake my personal preference would be the Grand Cherokee. Nice size, not too heavy and with the right transfer case you can easily tow it four wheels down forever without having any special limitations or restrictions on distance before starting it up. A smaller version such as the Liberty or the Wrangler would be another choice. They are bulletproof but don't tell Ken a Hummer guy is recommending a Jeep.

[Denny]

Ray,

That is a loaded question. FWIW, I have towed a Jeep Wrangler for many years without any problems. I believe all Jeep products are towable on all fours. As previously suggested, check with FMCA as they publish an annual report on all towable vehicles. In fact, two weeks ago I threw out a stack of FMCA magazines and that issue was one. Perhaps someone else has it and can send it to you.

Denny

[Ray Davis]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I didn't realize FMCA did publish that, and I'm in the process of printing right now from the web.

I had noticed in the two POG trips that jeeps seemed to be a vehicle of choice. In our group of 7 from CA and CO to POG3, I think 3 out of 6 towables were jeeps. I had really bad luck with a Jeep Cherokee in the 80's and had never purchased one like that since. A liberty is a nice size, and I know several of the group tow them.

Ray

[Just Plain Jeff]

1. We had good luck with a Saturn VUE, which we towed for five years, if you are looking for the budget end of things (more room on the inside than it appears.

2. Whatever towable you choose, make sure that when you tow it the wheels are actually turning. Can you imagine this: Some guy yanked a Hummer down the road without first checking the details to insure that the wheels were turning...and wound up with four tires with flat spots on them.

Imagine that.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I heard it was only two tires that were not turning. Rumor has it that with a Prevost it really doesn't matter if the wheels are turning or not. When you want to go, you just go and the toad tends to follow you.

There is less noise if the wheels turn however, a lot less smoke, and you don't get those pesky black rubber marks on the road.

[Ray Davis]

Prior to POG2 I purchased an EvenBrake system from Roadmaster. This is one of those system which go in the toad, and push on the brake pedal. I got this because I wasn't sure I'd keep this toad, or want a more internal supplemental braking system.

With POG2 trip, I had no problem. But, going to POG3 it had been 6 months since using it, and I didn't quite read the directions. When stopping for fuel at a Flying J I took the opportunity to disengage the brake thingy, and run the Honda through it's gear pattern to be set for another 300 miles.

I was idling for the last couple of minutes, and put the brake system back, and ran the test which it pumped the brakes three times. All is good, right? Not!

I got out towards the freeway, had to hit my brakes a bit, and next thing I here is tires screeching, smoke coming from the toad, and the brakes didn't release for probably 10-15 feet.

Ultimately I had two flat spots on my fronts. Jim and Chris reported on the CB that my Honda had been enveloped in smoke! The bus had zero problem dragging my poor little Honda, who was kicking and screaming behind me!

It's then I remember that the brake test is supposed to be done when the engine is off, to bleed off all extra vacuum. I had tried to save time, and ran the test while idling. So, I had a fully charged vacuum when the brakes engaged.

That's one I'll remember to do in the right order!!!

Ray

[Just Plain Jeff]

Ray, I hear ya.

The devil is in the details. Not being, well a very detailed oriented kinda guy, we always ran illegal; that is, without a brake dealie on the toad. I figured that if there were problems with the toad stopping, I had bigger problems to handle.

That may not make a lot of sense, but usually the little bugger followed along behind the bus.

Ol' Bob, whom some of you met at POG II, lost a Grand Waggoneer in TX when his hitch failed. It was his claim that the guy who put the hitch on forgot to put in The Pin. The guy said it was Ol' Bob's fault.

Anyway, his comment was memorable: "I was a lookin' and a Jeep just like ours passed us on the freeway."

And then it crossed the median, across a field and negotiated a hard stop against a cement wall.

Details, details.

[merle&louise]

Ray,

I tow a Honda Pilot; it has automatic 4WD. It would be the same set up as your previous Honda, put in neutral and go (be sure to make Drive the last gear selection before putting it in neutral).

I like it because it is small and can seat 7 with the fold down seats up, or seat 5 people with enough room for 4 golf bags in the back. I like the SUV fold down seats; it lends itself to all kinds of carrying cargo ability, and it gets 21 mpg.

Hint: after connecting the toad for the first time, put the bus in D and pull forward without giving it any gas pedal, after rolling a few feet, put it in neutral and see if you can still roll forward. If you can, the toad is free wheeling and the brakes aren't on. It's a good little test.:D

Good luck

[dale farley]

Ray,

When I started to find something to tow last year, I went to the Honda dealer to look for an SUV. I was surprised to learn that all Hondas made before 2006 are towable. As it ended up, I just bought a tow bar for my 2002 Accord, and it works great. If I had to purvchase another tow vehicle, it would probably be an SUV just because of their flexibility.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Ray, I thought your Toad was the hot set-up. Why not keep it ( being all set -up and ready to go), and get something else to give to your son?

If your a truck kinda guy. I like the Chevy Avalanche. Ready to tow, rugged, converts to haul like a truck and drives like a car.

[Ray Davis]

Jim,

The current toad works great, but my son's car is a 90 Accord. Although it runs fine, it has no air bags, AND he drives 50 miles each way to college, and also works late shifts (until midnight) at a coffee store. I work out of my home, and put on less than 5k per year on my personal vehicle.

In CA, those of us with hybrids, AND who got the early stickers, we can drive in the carpool lane, with only a single person.

So, I'm tranferring the Hybrid over to my son's use, so he can use the carpool lane, AND get airbags (front and side) in the Hybrid.

My wife's car is a 2003 Pilot, and I've considered making that our toad, although it is quite a bit heavier than some small SUV's. I'm leaning toward a small SUV, as it is very flexible in it's use, and it's nice to be able to seat at least 5 when you get to a remote park (especially during a POG rally!)

Thanks for the comments everyone, I appreciate them!

Ray

[Ray Davis]

Tuge,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give that a try next time. I usually try to check when making the corner out of a gas station etc, that the wheels are turning. I have to make enough of a turn to see the toad with the mirrors.

In the case I mentioned, previously, everything was rolling fine. The issue was that when the brake system put on the brakes the first time, there was still vacuum in the system. The EvenBrake system is designed to work on a dead pedal, and being there was still vacuum it stepped on the brake WAY TOO hard, locking up the wheels.

The manual says to kill the engine, and depress the brake several times to clear the vacuum. Also the test procedue that the unit runs through does the same thing. I just ran it with the engine running, and that was the wrong thing to do. Luckily Honda Civic tires are MUCH cheaper than Prevost tires. $105 and I had two new tires in Kerrville!


Ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My coach idling in drive probably has enough torque to drag the HUmmer with the brakes on. I am not positive, but when the brake incident occurred I was pulling out of my driveway, and because of how it lays with relation to the road I tend to not use the accelerator pedal until I am completely out of the driveway and straightened out on the road.

I now check in my mirrors and make a turn as soon as possible so I can get a visual on the wheels of the Hummer to make sure the wheels are turning.

Ray....I like the suggestion to use the Pilot. Your coach will not be able to tell the difference between the Civic and the Pilot.

[MangoMike]

Ray,

Dale is right both the Element and the CRV, which were ok to tow in 2006 and previous but since 2007 now on the no-tow list, which is too bad as the Toaster is a great toad. Good mileage, doubles as a trailer and will haul five (although in full disclosure there are only 4 seatbelts).

1375
plus it's a real chick magnet.

mm

[mikedee]

We tow an H-3 Hummer, kind of goes with my 40' coach. It scales at 5000 lb and is very easy to disengage the drive line, just hold two buttons for 10 seconds.

I installed Blue Ox tow plates, took about 3 hours and fit the Hummer perfect. The cost of the Hummer was $30,000.00 with 2,000 miles. (repo). We have drove it 30,000 miles and pulled it 25,000 more.

[Loc]

Ray,

We have a Jeep Wrangler and a 4WD Chevy Tahoe. For the last two years, we have towed the Tahoe exclusively. The Jeep is now a trailer queen. The Tahoe is a great tow vehilce. You simply put the transfer case in neutral by pushing two buttons for 10 seconds, take the key out and go (there is no steering wheel lock to remember about). For braking, we put an M&G brake system on which is activated by air from the bus and is permanently attached to the master cylinder of the Tahoe. That hookup is a simple air line from the bus to the front of the Tahoe that takes less than 20 seconds. When you unhook, you put the transfer case back in gear and go. The Tahoe has seating for six, seven if you get the middle bench seat instead of buckets. The rear seat folds down in a minute to make room to haul junk. The Tahoe actually tows much better than the Wrangler did even though it is heavier. I think it is the wheel base that provides more stability. The only issue with a Tahoe is that if you have a 45 foot bus you will be approximately 68 feet long when towing and that may be an issue in California. If we ever get a 45 foot bus, I will think about the Honda Element, Saturn Vue, or Chevy HHR.

Loc

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Apart from the fact that Di wanted a big vehicle to protect her when driving on the highways, we settled on the H2 Hummer because it puts us at 65 feet. We were also OK with the Grand Cherokee, but my Dodge Ram 1500 puts me at 68 feet.

[Ray Davis]

good point about the size constraints. I hadn't really thought about that much. currently I drive a 40ft, so it's not an issue, but someday I may upgrdade! :)

[ajhaig]

We are going to tow our 2006 3/4 ton Suburban. I bought this jeep new in November, it's a 2006, 6 cyl, 6 speed, w/ AC. It has 4,000 + miles. I'd like to get close to $18,000. for it.

[lewpopp]

I have a wish for and have hot pants for a new Buick Enclave which I understand is towable.

I presently have a 2006 Saturn Vue with about 7800 driven miles. I love it but the Enclave has got me breathing hard. Not one thing wrong with the Vue and if my wife see this post she will castrate me. I would like $21,000. I paid about $26,000. Front wheel drive and a V6. Lots of pep and a dream to drive and hook up.

Lew

[lewpopp]

That Saturn Vue is all wired to tow with the tow plate and all ready to go.

The wiring and tow plate alone is over a1000 bucks.

Lew

[Ray Davis]

Mango,

It's too bad. I did go to a Honda dealer yesterday, and indeed the Element is no longer on the tow list. In fact the salesman indicated ONLY the CR-V qualifies for 4-wheel towing. That's really a shame. I have 3 Honda's and wouldn't have minded purchasing another.

The new Element really looks nice. But, ....


Ray

[merle&louise]

Ray,


I am going to go out on a limb here, but here goes. I think that the transmissions in the 2006 and 2007 are the same ones that are in previous models (2005 and earlier). I have heard that Honda had some "issues" regarding towing BECAUSE the people using them didn't follow the directions carefully. Lew pointed this out to me on this forum a few months back. The last gear that is selected should be D before the car is put in neutral. If you select R and then neutral you can damage the transmission by towing it. IMO Honda is just doing this to cover their butts.

Maybe some Honda techs could tell you "off the record" if the transmissions are the same on the 2006 & 2007 units as the prior ones. If the transmissions are the same, I'll bet you can tow them with no damage.

I realize that it is a big chance to take, but I'll bet there is no difference in the transmissions!:D

[matsprt]

Ray,

What Tuga tells you is correct. The transmissions are the same. This is also true of the Acura line. America Honda got hit by a number of owner fault warranty claims with regard to towing and decided to end support. I know several people that tow new MDX's and various new Honda models with no problems. They also realize that they do so at risk should there be an actual problem there will be no factory support during warranty.

Realize once you are outside the warranty is all falls on you anyway.

Michael




Ray,


I am going to go out on a limb here, but here goes. I think that the transmissions in the 2006 and 2007 are the same ones that are in previous models (2005 and earlier). I have heard that Honda had some "issues" regarding towing BECAUSE the people using them didn't follow the directions carefully. Lew pointed this out to me on this forum a few months back. The last gear that is selected should be D before the car is put in neutral. If you select R and then neutral you can damage the transmission by towing it. IMO Honda is just doing this to cover their butts.

Maybe some Honda techs could tell you "off the record" if the transmissions are the same on the 2006 & 2007 units as the prior ones. If the transmissions are the same, I'll bet you can tow them with no damage.

I realize that it is a big chance to take, but I'll bet there is no difference in the transmissions!:D

[lewpopp]

To back up what I reported prior to this, I now have the Saturn Vue which has a Honda engine and transmission. Now what do you think?

Lew

[Ray Davis]

I guess in all fairness, it appears my Hybrid was never on "the list", as reported from FMCA. But, I tow it, and it indicated in the owners manually, that they *thought* it would be OK, but no significant testing had been done.

I would understand if they cancelled all cars, but the CR-V remains on the list.

Ray

[merle&louise]

Good point Ray.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Ray,
You could duplicate the Hybrid you now have in a used model. You already have all the tow equipment that fits the new acquisition. You wouldn't need the fast lane sticker and you would have the set-up you like and are used to!;)

[Jerry Winchester]

Lew - When did you grow another pair for her to cut off? Anyway, I like your toad. Plenty of stickers so we know it is you from a distance.

[Ray Davis]

jim

Hybrids are commanding a serious premium these days. I don't really need to spend the extra bucks for another one

Ray

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Here is another NEW Entry to consider for towing. I called them and they are towable all 4 down, with apparently no problems, except the mileage keeps ticking on the car. But this is sure a neat contender for just two people. Hence the name 2008 smartfortwo

http://www.smartusa.com/index.aspx The only forseeable problem with this vehicle, is no towbars available yet? They are coming to the US the first of next year, and owned by Daimler/Chrysler.

1 Liter Engine 3cyl 71hp

[Ray Davis]

I am considering a mini-cooper. I know that there's a couple of people towing them in the group. I assume I need to purchase a stick shift tranny for that. Is that correct (Mini-owners??)

Ray

[rfoster]

Ray: As with all BMW vehicles, Mini does not recommend towing. However I have towed an "S" six speed for over 10K miles with no problem. I consulted with an expert before towing it - Steve with California Coach towed his 20 K miles before someone bought it from him in a collision at a red light. The trick is to start it up every 3 or so hours of towing or when you wet your whistle, so you can strectch you legs and allow the oil to lubricate inside the Gertrag Tranny. I am not sure that the tailshaft is lubricating the tranny adequately or not, so let it idle for 3 or 4 minutes at each stop. I have left it running by accident, but fortunately they are very fuel efficient - especially when towing.:cool:

[lewpopp]

Roger... You have all the time in the world when traveling with Jon. As most everyone knows, he stops every hour to check the air in the tires. Good time to start the baby pooper, I mean Cooper.

[rfoster]

Personaly I like the Mercedes Convertible:
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g31/parkwayautoofbristol/toad3.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g31/parkwayautoofbristol/toad1.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g31/parkwayautoofbristol/toad.jpg

[Ray Davis]

Roger,

Thanks for the info. It sounds very similar to the Honda routine. Do you run it through the gears while it's running at the stops?

ray

[Jon Wehrenberg]

As a manual you only idle it in neutral. If you run it through the gears nothing is turning until you let out the clutch and I'll bet Roger's mini will stall as long as it is hooked to the bus.

[Ray Davis]

Ouch! That's a real "DUH" moment on my part! :eek:

Been awhile since I've owned a manual transmission. The Honda automatic has a very specific pattern for shifting before towing. Don't quite make sense with the manual tranny!

[lewpopp]

Yesterday I completed my research on the Buick Enclave crossover . It is one of the nicest looking and smooth driving vehicles I've been in. Larger than a Jeep or most towables. More attic storage.

It is dingy towable in both AWD and FWD (front wheel drive) with out any alterations. Blue Ox doesn't have a base plate yet but I expect it to be similiar to the new sized Saturn Outlook. It uses the same chassis, etc.

What a beautiful car.

Lew

[win42]

Ray: In Lisbon I saw just the tow car for us 45 footers in California.
Check it out:m
http://www.smartusa.com/

[BrianE]

Actually Harry, you Californians are a little late. Petervs has been playing with a very unique tow position for his SmartCar. http://www.prevostownersgroup.com/forum/

[win42]

Brian: The picture of Petervs smart car did not show on my copy of your message.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Ray: In Lisbon I saw just the tow car for us 45 footers in California.
Check it out:m
http://www.smartusa.com/

Harry, Look at my post # 33 up above for more information on this car. :)

Gary S

[Petervs]

OK, So the cat is getting out of the bag because I am too slow to finish this project. I was hoping to show up at a POG with this as a surprise but here it is right now then.

What I do not like about towing a car is that it is a pain to back up, and flying down the interstate at 75 mph makes me nervous with a car back there. Plus, a car in tow is really a trailer so you have to drive trailer speeds. Here is my answer to this problem.

I have had the car for a couple of years, and it is a great car for two people. I drove it for an entire tank of diesel ( 5.5 gallons) at 78 mph one day, and averaged 59.5 MPG.

Yes, all the axle, tire, and coach weights are still within limits. The engine access doors still open like before. The car weighs 1600 pounds, the lift is 240. It is not all hanging off the receiver! I still need to add taillights and paint, and some further road testing. It goes on and off in about the same time as hooking up a towed car with brakes and a gravel shield.

[Ray Davis]

Wow! So, how did you get a smart car already? I assume it's available in Europe and you imported it? Is it the same as the URL posted by Gary?

[Petervs]

My smart car was imported by a German fellow who lived in Illinois. He removed the engine/trasnsmission and shipped those in a box. Shipped the rest as a rolling chassis. Licensed it as a "replica". It is a very bad replica of a 1970 Mercedes! But since it is "old" it requires no emissions inspections.

Washingto state does not care. The insurance company does not care either. They have a picture and insured it as a Smart.

It is a 2002 model. Now has about 35000 miles.

A blast to drive too.

[Ray Davis]

Very slick, indeed!

[MangoMike]

Holy Crap!

I don't know what the final contest at POG IV is going to be. But whatever it is, this wins it hands down.

Very Cool.

Mango

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Let's vote online. YOU WIN.Peter. That's some nice engineering!

So now what do you have 45'+7'=52" an XL 52
:cool:

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Great Looking Rig, Peter. :)

Can you esplain how you get the SmartUSA Car up on the rack? It looks like you drive it on from the side, fasten the Safety Bars, and then ? Just guessing, please explain in detail for us.

I was going to test drive one of these here in Houston, next week. They won't be available until the first of the year.

I guess it is ok, to put the car(t) before the horse (bus) isn't it? Or in your case after the bus.

Just too cool for words. Great Job. Need to get your bus lights more visible, but I am sure you knew that. :confused:

Gary S.

[Petervs]

Listen up guys, this thing is not finished yet. Brian let it's existance slip out so I had to prove there was really something happening here. I would like to show you all the details, but I will refrain until it is completely done.

I plan to install lights on the bottom of the rack so even though the bus taillights are somewhat hidden, there will be no problem with traffic behind. It is not wider than the bus.

The lift is carefully designed so the car nestles up close to the back of the bus to minimize the overhang. Overhang is ONLY 5 feet! Pull two uplock safety pins, release the car tie downs, push a button so the car lets down to the ground by a parrallelogram linkage which sets it down about 2 feet further back. Flip out the attached ramps and drive the car off. Loading is the reverse.

Installation of the rack requires only 2 half inch holes drilled in the bus body into the frame, I had them covered with a piece of tape at POG 2, nobody noticed. And if the car is not on there, you can flip the outer ramp up by hand so the whole thing only hangs out 1 foot on the back of the bus.

There is no effect on the bus framework, you can still unbolt the bumper to remove the engine should that be necessary some day. There is no welding on the bus at all.

Let me know if I should get a patent and then build some more to sell to all you bling guys. About $100,000 each would make me happy.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Hey Guys, If Peter's are selling for $100,000.00, mine are going to be only $90,000.00:D :D
Too late to patent it. We all know now.:p

[Petervs]

Oh, sorry to report we will not be at POG 4. This April/October schedule in the middle of the country just does not work too well for our family timing.

I would really like to see some POGs in the north in the summer, and in the south in the winter instead of just what we have been doing. January in Tucson, July in Washington or Montana, etc.

But it would be my pleasure to demonstrate the Smart car and lift at some future get together. Assuming it has not fallen off the back along the road somewhere first!

[Jeff Bayley]

Last trip, I hired a driver and what a joy. I had a toy hauler I pulled and the driver had his own place and we had our privacy. I was thinking of getting a conversion van with it's own roof A/C and the like but I belive most of those would need to have the driveshaft disconnected each time and that creates extra work. The idea is the driver has his own place to crash AND we have a toad as well to run around in.

Anyone know of a van converstion that wouldn't require this ? I'm looking to get an older one for $5-$10k to start with. I think the older ones would all need the disconnect. Is this a 5 minute procedure once you get used to it ? Never done it before. Never even towed a car yet.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jeff, Some links for helpful towing items:

http://www.towbarsunlimited.com/page/page/580054.htm ("http://www.towbarsunlimited.com/page/page/580054.htm")

http://www.remcotowing.com/drive.asp ("http://www.remcotowing.com/drive.asp")

http://www.woodalls.com/email/diamondnewsletter/0607/gadgets_and_gear_landing.html ("http://www.woodalls.com/email/diamondnewsletter/0607/gadgets_and_gear_landing.html")

I hope these help to give you ideas on what to do!

[rfoster]

Petervs: Outstanding, and I thought you were going to get the "Anal Award" for the fuel MPG, but now you have exceeded our Award Nomeclature, We will have to come with something for outside the "bracket". Like your awning supports too.

I don't know about the west (Left) Coast but on the East Coast there is a potentiAl market not only for toads, but for the Golf Cart nuts. Golf Carts have become extremely popular in the Campgrounds.

The Smart Car is by Mercedes- Are they going to be sold by Mercedes Dealers or has anyone heard? I have heard it rumored that they willl be a stand alone franchise?

[garyde]

Great job Peter. Although I believe Mango could fit two of those in his bays. Now, we got to find a catchy name for the lift. Any ideas? How's about 'the mini lift' or 'toad tail'

[rmboies]

Great job Peter. Although I believe Mango could fit two of those in his bays. Now, we got to find a catchy name for the lift. Any ideas? How's about 'the mini lift' or 'toad tail'

Peter, AWESOME idea! When you are driving the smart car to you feel well protected? It seems so European small:D I like your name suggestion of "Toad Tail" Gary.....I can just picture the commercials-ha~!

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

The Smart Car is by Mercedes- Are they going to be sold by Mercedes Dealers or has anyone heard? I have heard it rumored that they willl be a stand alone franchise?

Hey Roger, see the Previous Posted message # 33 in this THREAD, page 4.

Gary S

[Jim_Scoggins]

SMART CAR:
I saw a diesel smart car in Halifax, Nova Scotia last summer—owner of a campground had one. It was really quiet and at first I thought it was an electric. Owner reported 72 MPG average in different types of driving.

Went to the local Mercedes dealer there with the intent of trying to buy one. They (the diesel)are not to be for sale in the US nor can one import one from Canada. Evidently, what is to be sold in the US will be a gas version. Glad to see Petervs had the patience to work around the whole importation goat rope.

Just a hell of a note since it seemed like a fine little car. With all the hoopla about the environment it’s just a shame we can’t readily buy something like the diesel version to use here. Unlike many econo boxes it was well built with excellent fit and finish.

JEEP:

Don’t think they are perfect but I am partial to the Jeep as a tow. Jeeps are probably an overkill as a Toad since they are not very comfortable or economical. They are a bargin if one likes to do jeep type outdoor stuff when you get there. I like them as they are an easy hookup even with automatic transmission. Have a 91 Wrangler that I have towed around quite a bit. It’s an old one (1991) and getting a little long in the tooth. Bought an 06 diesel Liberty but haven’t towed it very much. Don’t much like the idea of putting a new car behind the coach.

I really like the old one. It earns it’s keep on the backroads, logging trails, and powerline roads as I wander around looking for fly fishing places. I don’t wash it much and it is a true beater! If I see it passing me on the highway someday I will salute it as it goes by. I hate being ready to pull out in the morning and having to screw around hooking up. In most places I can pull the jeep around to the back of the coach and hook up the night before.

[Petervs]

Hi Debbie and Bob,

To answer your question, driving the smart car does not make me feel little, vulnerable, or like I am about to die. They did not design a cheap little car like all the original imports were. Rather, they designed a great 2 seat car that turns out to be little. The passenger area is incredibly roomy. Of course there is no back seat at all, and there is a smallish cargo area behind the seats and on top of the engine/transmission area. Big enough for a grocery run, etc.

It is a blast to drive.

It also has the modern safety features like air bags, belts, padding, crumple design, etc. The structure surrounds the passengers in what they call a Trition Safety Cell, rather than being beneath the skin as on most cars.

Check out this video to see what you think. They crash one into a barrier nearly head on at 70 mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s

I have been pondering a name for my contraption as well, so far I am leaning towards Smart Lift, other ideas are welcome.

I might put a sign on the back that reads: "These two vehicles average 34 MPG"

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I might put a sign on the back that reads: "These two vehicles average 34 MPG"

Peter, You have to add your sign above some how. That would make it PRICELESS.

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Peter....

Have you given thought to a sign that says: "OVERLENGTH"?

Do you need to have red flags or flashing lights on the rear just like extra length trucks do? I will guarantee you that you will not make it through Ohio with or without signs, warning flags or flashing lights.

[Petervs]

Overlength?

I have no idea what you are talking about. I see trucks pulling trailers all over that are labeled 53 feet long ( trailer only). Besides, I have a rubber tape measure that makes the coach and Smart only 40 feet long!

Actually, if that was to become a problem, all I need to do is hang a very lightweight trailer frame beneath the Smart. There is still a receiver hitch exposed. If the trailer were to stick out one inch past the back then I am legal length again because when pulling a trailer you can go 65 feet. A simple trailer, 6 inch wheels, simple frame, etc. Could carry it in a storage bay and only use it if needed. Could attach it to the Smarf frame with a little chain and it's wheels might never touch the ground. It could be called a car dolly. In Washington those do not need to be licensed.

Besides, I have no desire to go anywhere in Ohio. Well, maybe the Wright Air Force Base museum in Dayton, but I can not think of anything else there I need to visit.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I'm just breaking your chops, but only partly. The state of Ohio is the only one in the nation that I am aware of that strictly enforces the laws relating to large vehicles. I cannot answer why a semi trailer can be 53 and we are limited to 45 unless we tow and then typically the maximum is 65 feet.

I doubt if anywhere else you will get a hard time.

If you ever get to Ohio seriously pushing the limit is doing 59 in the mandated 55 MPH zones for vehicles over 8000 pounds.

[rmboies]

Hi Debbie and Bob,
To answer your question, driving the smart car does not make me feel little, vulnerable, or like I am about to die. They did not design a cheap little car like all the original imports were. Rather, they designed a great 2 seat car that turns out to be little. : "These two vehicles average 34 MPG"

Hey Peter,

Thanks for answering, this car looks really cool! At POGIII, I got to drive Roger and Micki's turbo mini cooper and was pleasantly surprised at the room inside. Of course the power was amazing as well but I didn't want to test the waters too much with Di in the backseat:D

Jon is correct about the Ohio staties....I was born and raised in Ohio and only go back to visit now but when we do, we go the speed limit--they show no mercy and will take a prisoner.

[win42]

I'll bet the Merchants in OH 10 Appreciate all the good PR the cops are giving their state. I will X that state off my travels.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Harry,

You can look at that two ways. You can feel good that the Buckeye Smokies are making folks obey the law, or you can get really upset because they have a 10 MPH speed differential between heavier vehicles and cars, and that sometimes creates interesting situations.

The truckers hate passing through Ohio.

[Petervs]

Hi Bob and Debi,

I too got to drive a turbo Mini Cooper a few weeks ago. It was fun, but a completely different experience than the Smart. Not even a close comparison.

The Smart has a tiny engine, 700cc, diesel, a 6 speed trans, and of course is really short. The Mini is much like my VW GTI in size and power, and is even heavier. The front seat passenger room in the Mini are not quite as roomy as the seats in the Smart, surprisingly.

The Smart weighs just 1600 pounds ( same as 2 Harleys or one Cessna 172). The Mini weighs 2800 pounds, quite a difference!

[rfoster]

Just a note of correction. No turbos on new New Mini Coopers. The S model is Supercharged.

Dale: And yes, even tho I am hooked to the bus, I run the gear shifter thru all the gears for good measure. I think its called Peace of Mind.:cool:

[lewpopp]

Price reduced on the 2006 Saturn Vue. Ready to tow...$18,500 from original asking price of $21k. Should get snapped up real quick. I love the car but I want a larger unit because it is my attic. Just the opposite of Peter.

Lew

[Ray Davis]

Lew, can you post a picture (or two) of your Saturn? Does it have a brake system installed?

[lewpopp]

Ray, I considered working on a brake system but the car is so lightweight I feel it would be unnecessary and a waste of Lewbucks.

If I knew how to post a picture you'd have a lap full. It is charcoal grey with a grey stripe on it.

I have been told how to post a picture, but by the time I get around to it I either forget or loose the printout of instructions.

This is a real good buy.

Lew

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Lew if there is anyone in the group that can help you post pictures it has to be THE Ray computer wiz Davis.

Call um on the land line.

[Jim_Scoggins]

lewpopp:
click on "post a reply"
scroll down and click "manage attachments"
find your picture on your computer using "browse"
click "upload"
let it finish the upload: you will see the name of the picture appear under "manage attachments"
"submit reply"

testing:here is a picture of :
guard dog Pootie

[dalej]

Lew, if you size them before you put them in a folder it will work great. Make a folder for POG postings on you c or d drive, call it POG photos. Size your photos or image size to 3.5 X 5 X 72dpi, use the cropping tool in photoshop and other imaging software. Save a copy of the image to your POG image folder and don't save changes to your original image.

[win42]

DaleJ has been trying to teach Lew and I how to post pictures for months now. It will be the beginning of the saddest days of this forrum when either or both of us learn how to do it. DaleJ will probably be drummed out of POG all together. You better be happy the way things are and remain.
First Warning!

[lewpopp]

This is my new driver learning to back the coach up

[lewpopp]

Well I followed directions and I got this to come up by pure luck. You would think the way our leaders walk around and consider themselves the masters of the computers, they would come up with an easier way to post. Harry, this put me in a full sweat. I'll bet I couldn't do it again.

As for going thru any reduction like Dale sayes, I'm lucky for what I did.

As for my new driver, Casey bitches at me for him having short legs. I told him I've have some similiar problems all my life so live with it.

I submitted this picture to the local newspaper and they printed it with a small blurb I wrote up about Casey and his travels.

Harry, some how we have to ignore the computer buffs. Hope all is well.

I'm still happy with my coach. I'd better be. Headed in for heart surgery sometime in the next 10 days. Just failed a heart Cath yesterday. Wish me luck.

We're not going to Branson because we stayed at that same campground and I think it sucks. Good luck to the guys with trailors. They say it is a new KOA (Kiss our Ass) but it is a new location in an old campground.

Lew

[Jim_Scoggins]

Lew:
What a great picture!

Hang tough!

[Just Plain Jeff]

Lew:

The very best of success with your upcoming heart operation. You have a wonderful heart! The docs need to figure that out and you will be just fine.

Best wishes and prayers from Helen and Jeff!

[rmboies]

[QUOTE=lewpopp;15963]Well I followed directions and I got this to come up by pure luck. As for my new driver, Casey bitches at me for him having short legs. I told him I've have some similiar problems all my life so live with it.

Gotta love Casey, he is just he cutest pup with lots of charisma just like his owner:D

Lew, we will keep you in our thoughts and prayers. Please ask Kathy to let us know how you are doing and remember, these surgeries are performed everyday and I have no doubt that you will be just fine. You will likely have more energy then you have had for a long time and that could be dangerous:eek: I can just picture you chasing Kathy around the bus-ha~!

[win42]

Lew: Were all pulling ( praying ) for you. It should make a new man out of you after the proceedure.
Thanks for the wonderful news on the Branson campground. That should cut down on the crowd. What picture are you talking about? The avatar?
Keep a stiff upper lip, but don't try and talk with it.

[BrianE]

Heart surgery is a goood thing these days Lew, guaranteed to make a new man out o ya. Agree with your Branson decision and will look forward to seeing you guys next spring. Be there! http://www.prevostownersgroup.com/forum/

[lewpopp]

Boy, here I did it again. It may never hapen again cuz I have dial-up and it takes forever.

Ray ..Here is the picture of the 2006Saturn Vue I want $18500 fo amd the rest of the 3 year warranty is still in force for the next 20-21 months.

I took a rear shot but I am short tempered tonite and my wife had to lead me thru the first one.

Lew

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Ok guys, now I need more help, and I still haven't got a bus in my barn, NOT even a barn yet, but more on that later.

I need your valued opinions on whether or not I should turn my daily driver into a tow vehicle?

I love my 02 Ford Excursion 4x4 Diesel SUV. (8800lbs) Should I spend about $5K to do all the necessary things to it to become a toad, ( brake system, lights, Remco Drive Shaft Collar, 10,000lb Tow bar ) OR should I spend at least double that for another towable, that I need to insure, outfit the same way, but will weigh 1/2 the weight of the Excursion.

The way I understand it; Since I already own, insure, drive and store my Excursion, converting it to the toad is the least expensive and best way to get a quality toad. But that much weight being towed, just concerns me, mainly fuel consumption towing.

Please don't hold back and let me know your thoughts, and what you really think??? ( Like anybody holds back on this forum ? )

And as always, thanks.

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Curious as to how that adds up to $5000, unless you give your checkbook and keys to someone and tell them to make it work.

If it is a 4X4 is it towable with the transfer case in neutral? If not I am not sure a driveshaft disconnect will do the job since both axles have the potential to drive the transmission. Is the plan if it cannot have the transfer case put in neutral to put it in 2 WD and disconnect the rear drive shaft?

As to the weight, if I had my druthers our tow vehicle would be as small and light as possible. We towed a 3600 lb Jeep for 200,000 miles and it was the right size to keep our length legal, it was big enough to take four adults, and light enough so hills were not an issue. The Hummer meets the above criteria except the weight is 6700 lbs. You know you are towing it going up a hill.

A tow vehicle is a mess after a trip, and the bigger it is the bigger pain in the butt it is to get it cleaned up. As states get hungry for revenues over length vehicles become targets, especially if you have a heavy foot. A heavy vehicle will impact your fuel mileage.

If you have to add a brake pacjage because of the weight, and a driveshaft disconnect to make it towable it is already getting to be a pain. What I liked most about the Jeep was it was light enough that brakes really weren't necessary (probably a good idea, but not necessary) and to tow it we just put the transfer case in neutral. The more you have to monkey with while hooking up the greater the probability you will have flat tires on the bottom, or some other such calamity.

[garyde]

Gary, you might speak with kevin who traded his heavy toy trailer for a Suburban tow car. He seems to like the size for his familly and carrying cappacity.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

For us the potential fuel mileage is insignificant compared to what we need to be accommodating for our traveling style and what we like.

I would love to pull a Mini or a Beetle but we really utilize the extra storage provided by the 1/2 ton P/U with a cap. Although on shorter trips it is not necessary usually it is.

I can see us with a smaller toad in the future but it will be in addition to the P/U not a replacement for it.

[Judi Brown]

Hi
We picked up a Liberty Limited for a toad and love it. It is a little more like a car than the normal liberty and explained in manuel how to tow 4 down.
Judi B.

[phorner]

We also tow a Jeep Liberty Limited. Seems to be a good combination when considering comfort, cargo space, weight, size and ease of towing 4 wheels down.

And by adding a roof rack and a fabric cargo carrier, you can still haul more stuff than ya really need....

After six years, we're still very happy with it.

[rickdesilva]

Subaru...then again I'm VERY biased. But it has to be a manual transmission. No towing limitations, no problems !

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Curious as to how that adds up to $5000, unless you give your checkbook and keys to someone and tell them to make it work.

If it is a 4X4 is it towable with the transfer case in neutral? If not I am not sure a driveshaft disconnect will do the job since both axles have the potential to drive the transmission. Is the plan if it cannot have the transfer case put in neutral to put it in 2 WD and disconnect the rear drive shaft?

As to the weight, if I had my druthers our tow vehicle would be as small and light as possible. We towed a 3600 lb Jeep for 200,000 miles and it was the right size to keep our length legal, it was big enough to take four adults, and light enough so hills were not an issue. The Hummer meets the above criteria except the weight is 6700 lbs. You know you are towing it going up a hill.

A tow vehicle is a mess after a trip, and the bigger it is the bigger pain in the butt it is to get it cleaned up. As states get hungry for revenues over length vehicles become targets, especially if you have a heavy foot. A heavy vehicle will impact your fuel mileage.

If you have to add a brake pacjage because of the weight, and a driveshaft disconnect to make it towable it is already getting to be a pain. What I liked most about the Jeep was it was light enough that brakes really weren't necessary (probably a good idea, but not necessary) and to tow it we just put the transfer case in neutral. The more you have to monkey with while hooking up the greater the probability you will have flat tires on the bottom, or some other such calamity.

Ok Jon, here is how it adds up TO $5000, more or less:

Remco Drive Shaft Disconnect $1200-$1400
Light Wiring Harness $200
10,000lb Black Hawk Tow Bar $ 1500
M & G Air Assist Brakes $ 1000

Paint Matching Stripes on Excursion so it CAN be towed to All POG Rallys like it belongs behind the Bus...... PRICELESS !!! :rolleyes:

And yes the plan was to disconnect the drive shaft to the rear wheels, which would allow towing, however, the thought of not only washing the bus at every rally, and campground, and the Solid Black Limited Excursion ( w/matching Bus stripes) is now, not sounding so appealing.

Maybe we can just catch a ride with one of you guys going into town for our needs, and not have a toad? :D

Jon, here were my original thoughts as I explained to J.C. I own the Excursion already, have a place to park it at home, already pay the insurance, should I just have it outfitted to tow??? Or Buy something lighter, smaller, then pay additional insurance, find someplace to store it, and pay to make it tow ready???:eek: Man what have I gotten myself into? I LOVE IT... !

And by the way, Jon. I heard about your CALAMITY... But they were only flat on the bottom!?

Gary S.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

The PP painted their toads to match the bus. Did you post this in the right place?

[Jerry Winchester]

Gary,

I have owned three diesel 4x4 Excursions and four 4x4 diesel F-350 PU's and I would not have towed any of them even if they would have shifted to neutral.

It's not just a little weight but a bunch of weight and a bunch of added length to deal with. If you are dying to find out how it would be, come borrow my aluminum car trailer and wag that Excursion around on it for a while. My bet is you opt for something short and light weight. I'm trying to get Rae to embrace the diesel Bug as a toad but I think we may go the Toaster route; toad and trailer combo. If I think I need a 4x4, I can load my Scout onto the trailer.

We are pulling the H3 right now and I am thinking about going to something lighter yet.

And since black is not so much a color as it is a statement of your willingness to work, there is nothing as nasty as a toad after 1000 miles and the only thing nastier would be a black toad. Keeping 45' of stainless clean is chore enough. Tossing in a black vehicle would keep you out of the bars for sure.

[truk4u]

Jon, did you just hear what Turd Boy said about your black Hummer!:eek:

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Jon, did you just hear what Turd Boy said about your black Hummer!:eek:

Hey Tom, you leave JDUB alone. :mad: He is trying to help me from making a bed decision, and I appreciate it. :)

The fact he mentioned something about a black tow vehicle was in no way directed at Jon, or anyone else towing a dark vehicle, it was just to point out the added work involved with keeping everything clean. ( Which we know Jon does very well anyway. ) :p

Thanks guys for all the information, LOOKS like I will have to catch a ride into town for awhile to get groceries and stuff?

Gary S.

[MangoMike]

Gary,

First off congratulations!

2312

The Honda Element. The world's most perfect tow car (if you love ugly).

Light in towing - 3500#

Great gas mileage.

Holds 4 legally, 5 in a pinch.

Seats all fold up and away turning the toaster in a trailer, which you can really pack.

Quick to clean, inside and out.

High interior headroom, will fit any large headed Texan without a problem.

Relatively inexpensive.

--

I also puchased a new Honda CR-V for my daughter, with auto transmission, which we tow, if you're looking for a little more style.

Good luck.

MIke

[Ray Davis]

Only problem with the Element is the newer ones are not towable according to Honda. Evidently they came off the list with the 2007 model, and the only Honda vehicle still listed as towable is the CR-V.

After you had showed pictures of your Element before, I went out, intending to puchase a new one, until I learned that they were not towable!

Ray

[garyde]

I'm of the contrarian point of view on this tow issue. Typically, I am on vacation heading to one destination point so I don't need a tow vehicle because I either rent once I arrive or I have a vehicle available to me. Now, if you are going to travel and stop over a two week period or longer in multiple locations, then it makes sense to have a tow. Keep in mind you have to travel slower, can not back up, have to deal with watching after the tow while pulling it, and all the expense to purchase, maintain the vehicle, tow bar, brake system, brake & running lights.
Also, depending on weight, the tow will effect your mileage.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Gary is correct. I would never tow except we just like having our own car with us (if you can call an H2 a car). There is also a lot of comfort knowing that if we have a problem on the road we can get in the toad and get parts or help.

But apart from the limited benefits of towing, I really prefer to not tow.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Never one to be a smart aleck...ah, you have to be careful if you have a MM toad with Stainless (The Real Deal), since many may not be aware that in the bright sunshine you can melt the plastic parts. How come that wasn't mentioned?

We'd had a 2000 Saturn Vue but after many years of hauling it around the countryside, it, er, a had a busted transaxle. You couldn't even feel it behind the camper. So we upgraded to the Explorer; no problems there at all...Ford makes a solenoid (dealer installed) to disengage the excambulator and then an LED lights up. If you can read the instructions they posted on the visor with bifocals and don't screw it up, it works just fine.

[0533]

Gary,

First off congratulations!

2312

The Honda Element. The world's most perfect tow car (if you love ugly).

Light in towing - 3500#

Great gas mileage.

Holds 4 legally, 5 in a pinch.

Seats all fold up and away turning the toaster in a trailer, which you can really pack.

Quick to clean, inside and out.

High interior headroom, will fit any large headed Texan without a problem.

Relatively inexpensive.

--

I also puchased a new Honda CR-V for my daughter, with auto transmission, which we tow, if you're looking for a little more style.

Good luck.

MIke
Mike how did you deal with the fact that Honda does not recommend towing the Element. I own one of these for my business and your right, its is a versatile transport device. Did you add a Lube system??

[Jerry Winchester]

MM's Toaster is a 5 speed, so I don't think the no tow restiction applies.

[0533]

MM's Toaster is a 5 speed, so I don't think the no tow restiction applies.
I guess that would do it, mine is an Automatic. thanks...

[Ray Davis]

Honda changed it's policies in 2007, and removed several vehicles from the towable list, even the manual transmissions. Why? Probably CYA. Currently according to Honda, and the FMCA towables list, only the CR-V is still listed as towable by Honda.

It turns out my Civic Hybrid was never listed, but I've had zero problems towing it. I do the gear thing, and so far, everthing is OK. (except for brake system locking up once and putting flat spots on the tires!)

Ray

[0533]

Honda changed it's policies in 2007, and removed several vehicles from the towable list, even the manual transmissions. Why? Probably CYA. Currently according to Honda, and the FMCA towables list, only the CR-V is still listed as towable by Honda.

It turns out my Civic Hybrid was never listed, but I've had zero problems towing it. I do the gear thing, and so far, everthing is OK. (except for brake system locking up once and putting flat spots on the tires!)

Ray
I guess I am way too conservative about my toad experiences, especially after I nearly destroyed Pam's Lexus RX 300. Blew the transmission with a oil lube system in place after a 1600 mile tow without a start, Lexus had no rules about this back then, and I didn't use my head. I even have a 2007 Honda Odyssey that I am afraid to tow, which is why I purchased the 2008 Saturn Vue XR, so that I would not have to fool with the starting, gear issues every 300 miles. Anyone want to buy at (Wholesale) a 2007 Odyssey 12,800 miles, Touring edition, nav, every option available. White, tan leather, like new. I mean at Black Book wholesale.

[hhoppe]

Toad Search Ended: We settled on a GMC Envoy Denali. It gives us the most room, 4W drive, V8, and 4 down towable. Hooked up to the 45Ft. Liberty with a Blueox tow bar and the Blue Ox Envoy kit it measures a hair under the required 65 foot max combined length. I hated to give up my Tahoe, but this unit is a 10" shorter version and works well for all our second car needs.

[Ray Davis]

Wow, I'm surprised that it's under the 65' limit! Congratulations That's grreat!

[hhoppe]

Ray we measure taped it all connected and it was a hair under 65". We drilled holes inside each tail light interior housing and installed a double element bulb and have integrated turn, stop,and tail lights when towing. No more toad portable lights attached to the roof.