Know this unit?

[henryhighwood]

Is anyone familiar with this unit? It seems to be priced low, but I am getting the feeling that there are some problems with it, and I am not getting a lot of information by email exchange.
My feeling is like buying an airplane. I would rather buy something that has known problems if the price is right, and then spend some money to get it fixed right.

http://www.prevost-stuff.com/1995_prevost_royale_45-harmon.htm

Can anyone help?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

265 gal of fresh water, wow, has anyone else ever seen a fresh tank that big? I like that, bad TDF though.

Ted 4 things immediatly came to mind. Great price, the beautiful paint looks like the same guy who painted truks bus that he just sold, the way the contact is listed it seems like its not from a private owner and you may have found something here:)

[henryhighwood]

[QUOTE=Joe Cannarozzi;15198 I like that, bad TDF though.

QUOTE]

Joe, I am sorry, but I did not get the TDF?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

The combined total capacity of both the gray and holding tanks is not big enough to hold all the fresh water should you try to go through it all before getting to someplace to dump. The TDF is additional volume that you loose in the holding tank by virtue of what you deposit in the toilet, TURD DISPLACEMENT FACTOR:D

All kidding aside, I actually really like the extra fresh water capicity and it is never a problem to find an acceptible place to drop gray water, to recapture holding capacity, if need be.

I called the number in the add and she called me back in about 5 min. Did you try to phone her?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ted,

I have several general observations that might address the price spread. Generally speaking a coach whose converter is in business, and who provides strong support for the coach will be valued higher by the market. Royale made an honest coach, and it was a good one but never considered by the market as a high end coach so it started life priced lower than some coaches.

Now that Royale has ceased converting coaches the market has reflected that in the values. This one does seem lower priced than I would expect, but that may be attributable to the number of miles, which in reality do not mean anything. It also may be attributed to the 5 speed transmission. That coach was an intermediate coach that sits between those made with the 8V92 engine with the Allison 700 series transmissions, and the later models with the Series 60 engine and the 'world transmission'. The 5 speed transmission was excellent by the way.

Another factor may be that the owner is up against the wall financially and needs money now.

Unknown, and certainly to be considered is the actual coach condition. It needs to be seen. Has it been trashed? Has it been maintained and are there records to prove it has? Has it ever had a serious accident? Does it drive well? Etc.

In this case I would use the buyer beware caution as my guide. It may be inexpensive but what is the rest of the story? This coach needs a good inspection because the price does strike me as low. If it checks out it is a good deal for someone that likes the coach and its systems.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Ted, The stated "NEW CONFECTION MICROWAVE", sure sounds :D sweet :D

When you go see this baby measure the water tank ( check it out) it might be 165 G..

[henryhighwood]

Thanks for the advice, I may give this one a closer look.

As for that oven, I was really hoping for something that I could use to fix a meal and not just desserts.

[merle&louise]

Ted,

There is a Prevost Pricing Guide on the home page of POG website. Applying the values I come up with the following:

1995 Prevost Royale 45 $185 - $225 = $205,000
200,000 miles/12 years = minus 5%
Royale is out of business = minus 10%
OTR air = plus 2%
5 speed transmission = minus 5%

TOTAL FAIR MARKET VALUE = $168,100

Sounds like the seller is asking a reasonable price if the price includes a PDI.

[henryhighwood]

Thanks,
The owner sent an estimate from Prevost from a recent inspection for about $11000 worth of work for what looks like an air leak (?) but the invoice was a little hard to read. There ws a note that the estimate did not include addressing some additional deficiencies. I am trying to learn just what they are.

Thanks everyone for the comments and guidance.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ted,

I cannot think of a single air leak that even approaches that cost to repair.

Having said that older coaches such as my 97 will be experiencing the leans which is air leaking somewhere within the complex leveling system so the coach tilts or droops. But.....given two days and all brand new valves, almost all of which will not be required, and the problem is solved. My guess is the valves will cost less than $2000.

The other potential leaks are the airbags. A generous amount of time is 12 hours, and $1500 worth of air bags and now you have a brand spanking new suspension and leveling system.

The only thing left are brake chambers. Less than $700 for parts and about 8 hours and the brake chambers are all brand new.

Maybe my gearhead brain is minimizing this, but except for bargaining purposes, those numbers are bogus and inflated and what I described above are real numbers. If you do the work yourself it sounds intimidating, but with normal tools and some time your total cost is parts, the prices which I gave are on the high side.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Ted,

I just noticed you live in the land of Lincoln. Joe is very knowledgeable on these things and with this forum the total talent and skill represented can provide whatever help you might need.

Where is the coach?

[henryhighwood]

The coach is in northern Florida. I may have to free up some time and point the aircraft south. The only problem is I would not know what I was looking at.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Roadrunner is down that way and if he can't help mabye another one of our Floridian members can. I can ask Bob our sailsman if need be he lives down there, let me know.

When I spoke with her she said that the OTR A/C is needing repair. The annual service was also included in her 10000 estimate of things to do, said Prevo has been doing that service mabye call them and see what they can tell you about it.


Also said they are 2 bus owners, almost never towed with it and came down another 10 right on the phone to me even after I told her I was inquiring for a friend. She sounded like she knew what she was talking about and owned them for a while. Didn't wan't to put it on consignment for fear it would rot on the lot. Has it pulgged into shore power at her sons and checks it daily.

Jon something tells me Ted might be able to show me a thing or two. The way he described how he likes to buy aircraft is precicly how we bought our bus!

[Just Plain Jeff]

It isn't always about the numbers. The goal in seeking a coach is to find the best, the very best coach you can afford to buy in the best condition.

This particular coach fits into the category of 1994 chassis with a 5-speed transmission. Now, everyone (Lord only knows) buys a coach believing that they will keep it forever. I have done that several times. Maybe more than several times.

Anyway, a Series 60 FIVE speed, unless purchased way in back of book is not likely the best way to begin the Prevost experience, especially if one is considering a trade down the line somewhere. These coaches were the very first Series 60 Prevost shells and from a trade point of view, are not considered to be highly valued, no matter the converter.

That's free advice, worth every penny you paid for it.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jeff's point is pretty accurate. If you tend to keep these things you can look at the market through a different set of filters than if you are inclined to trade up routinely.

But what Jeff is outlining as a negative, may be a positive for someone who intends to have long time ownership. You invest less, and typically can get more coach than one that is in favor with the market.

Angola for example made a great coach. They had a strong loyal following and their coaches were typically well equipped. They took at hit because they no longer exist. Royale, like Angola made a good honest coach. The market for Royale was those folks that wanted a nice looking (generally) wood interior without all the bells and whistles (and complexity), and since they stopped building conversions their prices have taken a hit. Regardless of whose conversion it is, they all share the Prevost chassis. This particular coach is a transition coach. They were able to get the Series 60 in it because it was a 45 footer, but the world transmission, the six speed was not yet fully developed for installation in the Prevost chassis, so this was the interim model. Just like the old 8V92 will be supported for a long time, so will the Allison 5 speed transmissions.

[henryhighwood]

So....
Aside from the resale value, what is the practical difference between the five speed and 6 speed? Pulling power, hill climbing, fuel economy?

Is reliability an issue?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I've had both. The five speed was set up to shift on demand, and would hold a gear when your foot was on the floor. As a result the engine would accelerate the bus a little better because the transmission was set up to shift at RPMs dictated by your foot. If you were into the power it would hold the gear until you maxed out the RPMs and if you were light on the accelerator it would upshift.

The six speed is set up in our buses to favor economy in exchange for performance, unless you select the performance mode. In normal operation it shifts at lower RPMs and delays downshifts in favor of economy. However, in performance mode it will rev higher before upshifting, including max RPM upshifts, and will drop down a gear sooner. The performance mode shifts tend to be harsher than regular mode shifts.

The five speed did not have a transmission retarder and supplemental braking required a Jake brake.

The six speed is available with a retarder, and there has been an equal mix of owners who favor each type of retarder. A retarder is very effective, but tends to drive up the oil temp in the transmission so transmission oil changes are either expensive (when synthetics are used) or frequent (when Dextron is used).

With rear end gearing appropriate to the transmission selected I can live with either one, but would prefer the six speed, primarily because off the line acceleration is better.

[Just Plain Jeff]

Jon may actually be onto some of the user-reasons about the 5 v 6 speed transmissions.

This may seem a bit strange, but it seems that Prevost Car got jammed up on access to transmissions in the early to mid 90s due to the fact that the 6 speed Allisons are also the the trannies used in the Abrams tank. (Not kidding here folks). After Gulf War I, the Army got in line first, so Prevost, so I have been told, was stuck with using the previous 5 speed transmissions for a bit until they could get access to the transmission designed to work with the Series 60.

You can get fooled comparing transmissions unless you are using similar engines. Jon is probably aware of the fact that his coach has a previously-green Series 60 in it, which has a lot more 'pull away' torque; that is to say, a higher output at lower speed, hence the appearance that the 6 speed is better. It is, but it is the combination of the engine and closer ranges of transmission that makes a difference, not just the tranny itself.

The 8V92 (good engine) has a higher RPM power curve, so it's a good match for the 5 speed. It has nice balance and when it's good, it's good. That engine and/or variations of it have been around for about 50 years.

Our Angola had a Jake on it; despite which, it was a no-stopping-kind-of-camper. (New topic). I've found, having had 2 8V92's and 2 Series 60 coaches, that in in-town traffic, it was much more necessary to be manually downshifting with the 8V92's than with the Series 60's; but that's also due to ABS brakes, so a bit of apples and oranges here.

Like we all say, the idea here is to get a general orientation, and go see the coach. Drive it and if you love it, bring it home.

Then we'll stop making stuff up like this and then actually try to answer to questions truthfully.

Welcome to POG!

[dale farley]

Ted,

I am located in Molino, FL (suburb of Pensacola) which is extreme Northwest Florida. I don't know exactly where the coach is located, but if I can help with anything, just let me know. Dale

[Jon Wehrenberg]

While the guy with the missing fingers may be telling us the truth about availability, hence the delay, Prevost was solving engineering problems during the changeover period.

The 40 foot coaches could not accept a Series 60 and the 5 speed transmission because the 5 speed is longer than the world transmission, and the Series 60 is much longer than the 8V92 so they started with the installation of Series 60 engines in 45 foot motorhomes because the extra rear overhang allowed for the added length of the combination.

When the 6 speed came available that transmission in concert with the Series 60 became the standard for the Prevost drive train. To accomodate it in 40 foot and entertainer coaches some of the structure had to be modified, including a change to the confirguration of the tag axle, from a straight axle to an arch.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Hey Jon, Thanks for more trivia. Very interesting stuff to know.
:D

[rbeecher]

Is anyone familiar with this unit? It seems to be priced low, but I am getting the feeling that there are some problems with it, and I am not getting a lot of information by email exchange.
My feeling is like buying an airplane. I would rather buy something that has known problems if the price is right, and then spend some money to get it fixed right.

http://www.prevost-stuff.com/1995_prevost_royale_45-harmon.htm

Can anyone help?

Ted,

There may be a connection here with the Harmon name, maybe worth checking.

There have been three Harmons I know of who worked at Prevost Jacksonville. One, Cindy is still there, her husband whose name I don't recall was the parts manager and left about a year? ago. John Harmon was a technician there and I have spoken to him several times on the phone, he is very knowledgeable especially on the XL coaches which the Royale is. John would probably check the coach out for you at a very reasonable price and he is in Jacksonville. He may even know this one. I do not have his number handy but will get it for you if you are interested. Feel free to call me tomorrow at 954-292-5786.

Richard Beecher
96 Vogue XL The Beechbus