Generator and Gen. Bay Rebuild

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We fired up the gen. the other day and it fired right up but no A/C power out. Can't decide who will rebuild or find what is wrong with the gen. side, get crummy service often and don't have any referals, looks like a pig in a poke for now. I'll do more research.

I've been wanting to do this bay for a bunch of reasons and it looks like this latest issue has moved the clock forward.

As I go through all the issues I'll post up as I go and list all information as I can on components and suppliers.

1323
Here is what I'm starting with. There was some additional trim around the radiator that was missing when we bought. I'll redo that to give it the finished look. All new insulation, flex piece for the exhaust, oil sending unit was dripping, fresh hoses,fresh fuel lines, the slide out needs bracing, everything goes back in WHITE including the gen itself a real antifreeze overflow canister and mucho lighting.

1324
If you look you will see a access panel at the right rear partly open. The next bay back is the OTRA/C evaporator and when we had it fixed they put a new adjustable expansion valve that at the time it was installed it was too early in the season to get set right, outside temps. were still too chilly. We were told to bring it back when it is 90degrees and since we have made easy access for the fellow it is time to get this done too.

1325
Here is the divider wall removed. This is what you will see on a gen with 5000hrs, 22yrs old, that has never seen any TLC. In this pic. the gen is totaly unbuttoned ready to be plucked. I'll use 2 tight slings and a friends fork truck and with the thing slid all the way out lift it off the slide and onto a cradle I'll make.

1326
Here's a better shot of that expansion valve in the next bay back. Does everyone know that there furnace style filters slid across in front of the evaporator. You put them in from a similar access panel that is in the plumbing bay at the other end of the evaporator.

[dalej]

Joe, I wished I lived closer, I could just drop in and help out when you need those extra hands.

[lewpopp]

A great undertaking on the generator compartment. What material are you going to use to insulate the area. As you know, I need to re-insulate my gen area.

Lew

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Lew

I do not know yet. I will have to do some research. What is in there now is two layers of foam pad with a thin piece of lead sandwiched between.

I'd like to find the latest and greatest and would be open to looking into all suggestions. All leads will be investigated, any suggestions, preferably white.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, I don't think the technology for sound deadening has changed. I have the foam/lead sandwich in my generator box. Mass will help, so another layer of plywood won't hurt. Harry may have some ideas. He is the expert on this stuff.

Have you found the flex tube yet?

[dalej]

soundown.com is a company that I thought had a good selection of products. I had talked to them and they had seconds on some items that I needed. They do a lot of support for the boating industry.

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

Hey Joe, don't forget to check out Zimmerman's web site for their rebuild of the Generator compartment in their 99 Liberty. They had this coach for every one to look at, at POG III.

It was quite extensive and should give you some valuable insite into products and procedures, you might use. Just ask Lou, he'll have some good words to say about Zimmerman. :rolleyes:

http://zimmermancoach.com/?type=post&id=7

Gary S

[Ray Davis]

Joe,

When I was first looking for a coach, I ran across several in the Eugene OR area who had used a new material for generators. It looked almost like aluminum covered material.

I asked the salesman where it came from. Here's his response. (It looked like good stuff to me).


You can purchase the material you need from my freind Dick Wright. Phone: 541-744-4333. I didn't see the insulation on his web site: http://www.wricointernational.com/ however you can phone him to order.

[win42]

Joe: I spent quite a while writing a proceedure for your sound liner in the generator bay. When I down loaded it disappeared. I guess it was too lengthy so I'll write it again and down load it as a new thread.

[win42]

Generator Housing Re- Build : Most of us with older coach’s have a rubber sound deadener material lining the interior of the generator bay. These tend to soak up oil and start to turn to jelly. The goal here is to provide a dense material to prevent the sound traveling through the walls and ceiling. To add enough acustic material to the interior to use up the sound energy by vibrating a fibrous media turning the sound energy into heat energy and eliminating the higher frequency sound within the generator room..
What I would do: After cleaning all the walls I would add 5/8” fire rated sheet rock to walls ceiling and floor. Install 2” thick 1832 Deg. F Calcium Silicate Blanket to all the interior walls, ceiling, floor and door over the sheet rock using stick pins to hold it there. I would the form up 2” deep pans of .040 aluminum sheet perforated with 32% open area with .087 holes. Fasten the pans to the wall thereby covering the Cal Sil blankets.

Where to find it: You can locate and read about most of the materials by going to mcmaster.com. Insulation and stick pins any industrial insulation company or supply house. Perforated aluminum from a local aluminum supply house or an Industrial Sheet Metal Company. They will be able to form the pans with a 2” flange in and another ½” turned in 90 deg. also. Sheet Rock from the Lumber Yard. I would not paint the aluminum, but you could.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon haven't looked for the exhaust pipe yet. I think I'll try Liberty up here to see if they are using the stuff.

Harry, I was with you until the 32% open area and .087 holes. Can you clarify a little on this? Thank you for the web site.

I am giong to move on the insulating first. I want it done for sure before the gen. gets back.

I do not like the way ours sits in there, should be in there turned 45 degrees but that would be too many changes. If I was replacing with a new unit that is what would be going in.

Recieved a solid referal for the gen. shop. Steve at Central States Charter gave it up. I feel comfortable with it and its 10 min. from our house. It will be in there hands wed. or Thurs.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Joe, Great big project you have going there.
Here is a web site for a stainless steel flex tubing. It appears to have the characteristics necessary for your project, but I am not endorsing it. I just found it and have not researched it thoroughly. That will be up to you. I also like the way the tube is made. There are no seams. I however do not know what the minimum bend radius is nor how many times the tube can be cycled through the bending. This is a start for your search. Contact them and see if they can help you get what you need.

Look at the corrugated hose by Penflex. I called them and their product has been used in exhaust applications. Use their engineering staff to help you determine which product is best. Have them recommend a destributor that would sell you a small quantity by the foot. You can see some of the specifics by downloading their PDF catalog. This looks better than the first tube which I erased.

http://www.penflex.com/ ("http://www.penflex.com/")

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, perforated sheet metal such as what Harry suggests is defined by two dimensions relative to its perforations. The first is the size of the hole. In this case it is .087 diameter holes. The second defines how many, or their spacing. In this case there are so many that the open area in the perforated sheet is 32% of the sheet.

I assume they are still in business, and if so try looking up Harrington and King. At one time they were big perforators and their catalog had hundreds of pictures of sheet metal perforation patterns shown and their specs listed (as above).

[win42]

Joe: Jon has given you the correct info on hole size and the number of holes is determined by the 36 % of open area you want. Hole pattern is another determination you should also give them. In this case I think you want them staggered. Good luck with your project. I'm out of here for three weeks.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I'm moving forward with Harrys suggestions.

The drywall is not a problem. I wonder why he suggested to put drywall on the floor and ceiling only? What about the calcium blanket, only on the walls and not the ceiling? I think both on both walls and ceiling? Floor, drywall only? Drywall seems odd for the floor too? I'll have to call Hary I think he's gone.

I called the Harrington joint Jon suggested, they are here in Chi. Stock item Aluminum .050 thick.062 hole size 31% ,36 by 120 187bucks. Not exact but close enough I think. Minimum custom order is 500$

Where might I locate a 1832degree calcium silicate blanket?

Jim The flex pipe can also be had locally in Franklin Park, 100bucks will get me 15 ft. GEIB 1 847 455 4550.

What else/ Additional exhaust wrap, radiator overflow kit, paint, lighting, fuel lines, rad. hoses.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

You are well on your way. The sheet aluminum can be cut and bent by any local sheet metal shop. All you need to do is make drawings after you decide how you want it to line the box and take that and the sheet aluminum to the shop and they can do it easily.

I would suggest you make drawings and then lay out the pattern for cutting on paper so you can use the sheet of material most efficiently. If you want to do the sheet metal yourself you can cut it easily with a 3" X 1/16 abrasive blade in a die grinder, but it will not look as nice as sheared pieces. You can bend it yourself to make the flanges also, but nothing looks as good as brake formed flanges as Harry has suggested.

FWIW you are in the middle of an area that has a lot of used machinery dealers and a lot of those specialize in sheet metal equipment like shears and brakes. They can hook those up and let you play if you offer to pull a trailer for free for a local delivery.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon

I park the Pete at the other end of our neighborhood in a lot that is owned by a pattern maker. When he is done with the pattern he makes the blanks out of whatever alloy is required.

Sand casts and a small home made blast furnace. Quite an ingenious and resorseful fellow. Got a whole shop full of large gear.

The steel mills and refeineries and the railroad all come to him with there aniquated stuff that is busted and can no longer get.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

You got it made, Joe. That generator housing is going to look mighty fine.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Dropped off the gen. this afternoon.

I think I have 2 or 3 weeks to get the bay cleaned up and reinsulated before they are done with it.

This is a project that seemed overwhelming as I prepaired but is going reasonably well and easy.

1334

Look at how the exhaust wrap stops short. No good. The insulation there was disintigrating into powder as I took it out.
I've been saying I'll change the bay to white. If you look at the floor after an initial cleaning, and look at the old insulation, it was white to start:eek:

1335

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I just went to mcmaster web site and I do not think I will be using the calcium silicate blanket.:mad:

A piece that is 1 inch by 36 inch is 40 bucks a foot. If I double it up to get to that 2 inches thick I now have and Harry suggested I'd need at least 20ft. OUCH didn't budget 800+ to insulate the bay.

The way it was in terms of noise was already VERY QUIET. Although I want to utilize all the latest and greatest in technology I need to use something less expensive here.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

[QUOTE=Joe Cannarozzi;15084]I'm moving forward with Harrys suggestions.

The drywall is not a problem. I wonder why he suggested to put drywall on the floor and ceiling only? What about the calcium blanket, only on the walls and not the ceiling? I think both on both walls and ceiling? Floor, drywall only? Drywall seems odd for the floor too? I'll have to call Hary I think he's gone.

Joe, Read Harry's post #10 again. He says to cover all surfaces with the fire rated dry wall.;)

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Here is where I am now and how I got there.

I recieved a box of samples from Soundown corp. (overnight air I might add).
Quite a selection of products they sent me, and seem like great people there as well. I have decided what I will be using and will place an order for the following.

1347
This is what the industry is now using in place of the lead sandwich. It is 2 inches thick. There is now a dense composite material instead of the lead. I am using this on the sidewalls plus I will aditionally reaply the lead sheets first, from the old insulation that I have cleaned the old foam from.

The ceiling and the back wall will be the same and additionally will have the 5/8 fire rated drywall Harry suggested, after the lead but before the foam sandwich. Some clearence issues on the side walls to accomidate the drywall prevents it.

1348
This is the outer layer, White Mylar, washable, they sell seam tape of the same. (This picture is for the purpose of displaying the white mylar, I will not add an additional inch of foam with it.)

1349
Here is the perferated aluminum cover. Its powdercoated white. I am holding off on this step till I find out what the cost of the gen. repair will be. It can be installed afterwards without much extra fuss. The outward facing edge will be finished off with a (polished) metal end cap (2in. C-channel) that was previously there.

The backside of the door is still a question untill I get the gen back in and close the door and guage exactly how much room I have inbetween.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Here is what I decided with the floor.

I cleaned the exzisting floor as good as I could then put down some thick rubber mat for a vibration dampener and secondarily, for additional insulation.

1350
1351
This is not from sounddown. It is a cheap replacement I had laying around. I doubled it up and turned the pieces face to face and left the shipping plastic attatched to it.
1352
The upper right corner ( kinda dark) is where the exhaust pipe goes through the floor. I stayed 4 inches away from it with both products and will fill that area with lead and exhaust wrap around the pipe, wrapping uniterupted around the pipe, right through the hole.
1353
I then took more garage scraps. These are oak sheets that were left over from the kitchen cabinates. They finish the exposed ends of cabinates. I think if this oak wasn't already stained and poleyurithaned I would have stained it dark to match the window trim in the cabin;) Mabye I'll upgrade the top cover for the radiator from laminated to Corian:rolleyes:
1354
I had some stainless finish washers for a nicer look. I am going to continue to apply a coat of urathane a day until the gen. comes back:D Most of this you aren't going to be able to see with the gen. back in but I'll know it's there.

Although I wanted to add drywall between the mat and the wood I decided against it because while removing the gen. there was just enough travel up with completly tight slings to clear the slide, with it out, before the top of the fork gets up against the bar for the door that goes across the top of the door opening.

The bottom of the bus is sprayed with expanding foam 3 or 4 inches thick right from the factory.

Another great rally contest just came to mind, quitest gen.:rolleyes:

I'll hold off on costs untill the last post.

[dalej]

Joe, it's looking great. I can't wait to see it in real life. I'm thinking of next year for mine. My foam will crumble when touched, so it's time for a re-do.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Did some good work today. Mocked up the drywall on the walls a few times and was able to adjust the door arms just enough to be able to accomidate the 5/8 fire rated drywall on the side walls without getting the door too much out of center in the opening.

1366
I pulled this bracket and shimmed it just enough for the door arms to clear when they are closing, the lead and drywall now will come all the way to the door. This is why I thought I would not be able to drywall the sides but now the whole box will start out with lead and fire rated drywall under the foam, not just the top and back.

1367
I packed the voids in the wall where the 3/4 plywood was over cut to accomidate the door hardware and then leaded and drywalled

1368
This is where the insulation used to stop, everything outside that point was uncovered and just as you see it. Now it will be lead sheet and drywall right up to the door.

1369
Here is a picture of the ceiling at the door. You can see where the old insulation ended. I will be able to go all the way out to the outer wall with the lead, drywall and insulation here as well.

1370
I inadvertiantly found a good way to insulate the backside of the door when the time comes. If you remove the nut from the end of the lower arm with the internal spring it will come to rest in this manner.

If Deb gives me some time on the 4th I should have the compartment almost ready to put the gen back in. UPS tracking says our new insulation will be here tomorrow.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Here is the slide after it was cleaned. I washed it in solvent and rinsed, and repeated those steps about 5 times, then turned it over and did the same thing.

1371
The brown is the old color and we are using Ivory for the new color instead of white to give things a little contrast against the white insulation. Also because this paint is rated for 1200 degrees and is plentiful at Home Depo for touch-ups.

1372
If you look where the coller is coming through the rubber mount you will see it is cocked. This is because a bracket failed and the weight of the gen. over time tweeked them. You will also see where I added a new piece of angle, front and bottom, to straighten things out and add support.

Hopfully I will be able to coordinate getting the new exhaust flex pipe this week. They are going to weld the correct diamiter collers on the ends for us. The new exhaust wrap is on will-call and I think I will use stainless braided lines for the fuel. I'm leaning towards two, 4in round, clear LED back-up lights, on a seperate switch, for better lighting.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Joe, For your lighting.http://www.westmountainradio.com/PWRbrite.htm ("http://www.westmountainradio.com/PWRbrite.htm")

Easy surface mount!

JOE: per your request here is the main web site.

http://www.westmountainradio.com/ ("http://www.westmountainradio.com/")

I thought you would just Google: West Mountain to make the connection.

[gmcbuffalo]

Joe
How hard is it drop that door flat like you did to put the insulation on the back? Looks like a great way to make a picnic table next to the coach. Would it be easy to do this for a table under the awning?
GregM

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I like a guy who is thinking outside the box.

It's the lower arm with the small internal spring that I removed. There is only 1 on each door. I suppose if you replace the bolt that attatches the arm with something like a wing-nut style head it would be more convienient.

You would have to protect the door seal with a smallpiece of something so you don't damage it with the door in that position and I did not see if it would hold any conciderable weight or not but a leg would solve that if nessessary.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Haven't gone any further on that bay this week but have picked up some new parts.

1378
The top is the new corrigated exhaust pipe and the bottom is the old spiral style. Although the old one is still in good shape in terms of no visible leaks when you hold it from one end and shake it its pretty loose. The new one, 60 inches with end collers with dimensions to my spec welded on, was 65 bucks.

1379
It's way more flexible than the spiral one. No problem bending it to this radius, capabale of a little tighter still.


1380
The insulation came too. I'll glue it and drywall screw it. Screwing into it is like trying to screw into carpet. I was told to take a long small punch and heat it up and melt pilot holes first. Can also be predrilled with the drill in reverse.

Jim nice lead on that light bar I'm gonna try it. I can hook it directly to the bar for the door that goes across the top of the opening for the bay and use the 24volt power already there off the micro switch that feeds the pitiful lighting supplied by prevo. If it works good I think I'll use it in the engine compartment too.

[gmcbuffalo]

Joe
I missed something what was the source for exhaust pipe?
GregM

[win42]

Joe: I feel bad I had to bail out on you in the middle of the Generator Project. After I left home I read you problem with the price of the insulation and tried to reach someone that could let you know a fiberglass material is cheaper and would work. We have even used Mineral Wool in the past, but it may sag with the jarring the bus would give it. You have done a good job on it. We can't wait to see the generator running in it.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Greg the source for the corrigated exhaust pipe is

Geib Corp.
Franklin Park, Ill.
1 847 455 4550

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We got 1 step closer yesterday and instaled the new fuel lines and hung and taped a good part of the insulation.

Tomorrow I'll do further mock-up installing the divider wall seperating the gen. from the radiator so I can fit that wall with lead, drywall and insulation. It won't go in permanant until the gen. is back to make its reinstalation much more accesable.

1388

1389

1390
My brother-in law suggested, while showing him the white perferated aluminum that will install over the mylar coated foam, that the dirt and soot that will inevitably accumulate over time will blacken the mylar coating behind the perferated and will keep me from being able to wipe it clean. Always good to have that second set of eyes. I tend to agree.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

Any sooting is likely to be evidence of a problem with the exhaust. I think your new pipe has cured that so you should be OK. I assume you have a blower to evacuate the housing of fumes during the start cycle. If not, that should be a part of what you are doing. The air intake for the box can be run through a large filter so both the generator box and the generator air intake are receiving clean(er) filtered air, further minimizing the soiling of that new white interior.

[Just Plain Jeff]

As utterly painful as it is for me to agree with Jon, I must do so, but perhaps only in just this case.

With a well-performing exhaust system, properly fixed to fittings, there should be no build-up at all. One side note is that many coaches are fitted with catalytic converters on the generator. Liberty, for one, strips them off. Some clown in Washington mandated that all engines should have them, but the generator motor is an exception...leaving the catalytic converter on the generator engine is waiting for a problem to develop as it doesn't get hot enough to burn off the residue.

Further, many conversions have passive venting in the generator compartment, which, I guess, is a fairly good idea, but it wouldn't hurt to have more control over the internal environment here while you are in there.

As noted in an earlier post, Helen was in search of the lint exhaust from the dryer in our Liberty. Jon had erroneously told her it was in the wheel well. We finally found it, get this, into the, you got it, generator bay. This, with only a passive venting system, is a likely candidate for a lot of icky stuff where it should be clean.

Geez, now there I go again with a wandering dissertation for Kerley.

Anyway, when Joe is done, betchya we could whisper in his 'new' coach while the generator is running and actually hear each other. But then we would have to remember to turn it off.

Kind of a problem at this age. You don't get it all.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon we do not have a blower to evac the start up fumes.

I am curious, what and where are these fumes coming from that you describe.

There is 2 small vents in the floor covered with wire mesh. If I put an exhaust fan in that compartment it will also be exhausting sound?

I think there is sufficiant compramise in the exzisting design. The wall that divides the gen. from the radiator has 2 holes in it to allow the radiator hoses through and when I fit it I can leave enough additional space around the hoses so that the blower that is sucking air across the radiator can at the same time draw air from the gen. compartment too. What say you?

I like the Idea of the air filters in the 2 floor vents, that will deffinatly keep things cleaner longer.

Soundown also has baffles that they have deisgned to limit the amount of noise that the radiator blower creates. I was told it can be modified or designed to fit directly ito the duct that directs the discharge air away from the intake. Sounded like a good idea, no pun intended.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, any enclosed engine compartment should have forced ventilation to remove any fume build up prior to engine start.

We all know that diesel fuel is very hard to ignite, but given the wrong set of circumstances and a catastophic event could occur. If you have any doubt review the conclusions reached about the unfortunate accident with TWA flight 800 over Long Island. Jet fuel (diesel) fumes in an empty fuel tank were presumed to have been ignited by a short circuit in the wiring within the tank.

In our coaches a loose or broken fuel line allowing fuel to leak in the compartment, along with the sparks likely when the starter motor is engaged, or the alternator begins charging and a problem could occur. The likelihood is slim compared to the risk with a gas fired engine, but I am not willing to assume that risk.

You could wire a blower to introduce a flow of outside air anytime the generator is going through the pre-heat or start cycle or is running. You could leave the floor vents to exhaust the air, but I would urge you to consider adding forced ventilation for the generator compartment.

I hope Jeff is kidding about the dryer vent. I can't imagine all the negatives associated with that piece of poor engineering.

[Just Plain Jeff]

No, I wasn't kidding at all about the dryer vent exhaust entering from the forward section of the generator compartment.

It took Helen forever to get it clean. She even used the long curved Kelly clamps she reserves for the toughest applications to evacuate the vent.

I was told by Liberty something to the effect, "Nothing to worry about because there is a passive vent at the rear of the generator compartment."

Ain't fibbing about this one.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

So with each dryer cycle the generator gets treated to several quarts to a gallon of water in the form of vapor that will find its way into every part, internal and external of the genrator.

But if you choose to never run the dryer, you alternately get fumes from whatever is dripping, leaking or seeping into the generator box including CO, soot, fuel or oil vapors, etc.

The answer of course is that the dryer itself has a foam plug to keep bad stuff out. I know on my coach the plug that is supposed to seal against road dust or whatever else might come back up the dryer vent hose is far from a hermetic seal and I doubt that CO, or soot, or even diesel fuel fumes would be stopped.

To Joe's situation, I recommend treating the generator box as space that needs to be vented outside, it needs to be ventilated for 30 seconds or so before the generator is started, and the generator box needs to be isolated to the maximum extent possible from other bays and especially the living area.

I don't want to suggest the ventialtion fan can be eliminated, but upon generator start it can be turned off so that the box is a negative pressure area due to the generator air intake being inside the box and drawing in a large enough air flow to literally pull any fumes into and through the generator engine.

But no dryer vents. What an obvious path for CO from a defective exhaust pipe to travel into the living area of the coach.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Makes complete sence. Looks like I've something new to concider.

Mabye I'll hook up a 12volt fan to the preheat wire. I could exhaust it to the Radiator compartment but it will need some type of louvers that will close or I'll be creating a hole for noise to get out.

I guess I could also just go out and open the door prior to use to be safe and keep it simple. This would also be a good excuse to check the water and oil prior to every use:rolleyes:

I wonder how many converters have designed this compartment with an exhaust fan that automaticly goes on prior to start-up, and how do they do it?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe I think you have the idea. If it ties in with the pre-heat of the glow plugs and your preheat cycle is long enough to bring in a few air changes I think you handled it.

[Just Plain Jeff]

So with each dryer cycle the generator gets treated to several quarts to a gallon of water in the form of vapor that will find its way into every part, internal and external of the genrator.

But if you choose to never run the dryer, you alternately get fumes from whatever is dripping, leaking or seeping into the generator box including CO, soot, fuel or oil vapors, etc.

The answer of course is that the dryer itself has a foam plug to keep bad stuff out. I know on my coach the plug that is supposed to seal against road dust or whatever else might come back up the dryer vent hose is far from a hermetic seal and I doubt that CO, or soot, or even diesel fuel fumes would be stopped.

To Joe's situation, I recommend treating the generator box as space that needs to be vented outside, it needs to be ventilated for 30 seconds or so before the generator is started, and the generator box needs to be isolated to the maximum extent possible from other bays and especially the living area.

I don't want to suggest the ventialtion fan can be eliminated, but upon generator start it can be turned off so that the box is a negative pressure area due to the generator air intake being inside the box and drawing in a large enough air flow to literally pull any fumes into and through the generator engine.

But no dryer vents. What an obvious path for CO from a defective exhaust pipe to travel into the living area of the coach.

Sorry I didn't get back on this sooner. Hitman Frank and I were setting up the 3-phase rotoconverter in the shop. Works wicked good.

Anyhoo, the deal that Liberty did was to provide a foam dealie inside the stackable dryer to 'seal out' the road nasties from the dryer whilst wandering down the interstate.

We didn't experience any unwanted fumage (new POG word?) in the dryer or living areas of the coach due to the dryer vent being in the generator compartment.

But I hear that a guy could have a toilet valve failure and wind up drinking black water.

Now that would be nasty.

Oh, don't blame me, I didn't engineer the deal, just reporting. Don't shoot the messenger.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

My only reason for beating that drum was the foam in the dryer lint trap might be sufficient for keeping road grit or dust from the dryer interior, but if you had a defective generator exhaust it will not stop CO from entering the coach, nor will it block odors such as that of diesel fuel that might come from a little spillage when changing filters.

At least by extending the dryer vent to the exterior of the coach you not only eliminate any possibility of CO or odors from the generator, but you aren't dumping all the moisture from the drying cycle onto and into your generator. It seems like the addition of the washer/dryer was a retrofit.

And yes, the plumbing to the toilet was another example of some questionable engineering. I don't think we should be defending or keeping these quiet, but should be making people aware of things on the coaches that need to be addressed.

[win42]

Jon: You are right on track per usual with both of your suggestions. Keep up the good work. We bus owners appreciate your keeping us out of trouble with your thoughtful suggestions.:D

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Here is what happened to the wonderful original junction box for the Gen.

1396
It is plastic. That aint gonna happen again.

1397
Here is the glue I used on the foam insulation. Available at Home Depo, 12bucks a can.

1398
This is how well it sticks, immidiatly. This pic. was taken instantly after putting these two things togeather. I have not applied mechanical fasteners yet to the finished walls and ceiling and I just may not, mabye a couple in the ceiling then cover the screw heads with a piece of the white mylar tape.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Contact adhesive releases with heat. I would suggest you mechanically fasten the insulation to the walls in addition to adhesive.

We used heat guns to remove laminated plastic from the wood core of counter tops without damaging either the plastic or wood. It did not take a lot of heat to break the bond.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Per Jons suggestion of the risk of explosion at start-up due to unwanted fumes in the gen. bay and currently only passive ventilation I have come up with this.

1399

1400

This is a medium sized, low profile, 12 volt automotive radiatator cooling fan with shroud. I will mount it underneeth the compartment at the exzisting rear floor opening by scraping away the sufficiant amount of sprayed foam from the bottom of the bus. I will protect it underneeth by a rearward facing shroud I'll construct from a medium I have not yet chosen.

The fan is larger than the exzisting opening but because its 12 volt, very low profile, inexpensive, and very abundent if to be replaced due to failure I'm going with it.

In order to keep the gen as quiet as possible I will not enlarge the opening either.

I will force air INTO the compartment causing positive pressure in the compartment, also Per Jons idea, and power it with the same glow plug wire that is activated with the gen. pre-heat switch that HAS to be engaged to start the gen.

It is a little more than I think is needed but this is another garage find and if it ever fails they are abundently available in any bone yard for a dime a dozen.

It was also suggested to me to put the preheat switch on a timer to assure sufficiant pre-start opporation time of the fan but in order to try to keep things simple I will make note and pre-heat for a min. of 30secs. manually.

Suppose I'll be adding a few mechanical fastners to the insulation too, Thanks for all the suggestions Jon, Jim and anyone with additional comments as well.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jim sorry for the late responce, don't think I'll do the perforated for now.

Although I have some minor things to finish we fired up the gen last night and ran it for an hour or so:)

Gotta love that electric fuel pump, did not have to prime it at all. It started and died twice then continued running purring like a kitten. Had to burp the cooling system 4 times before the temp. guage settled down.

Still have to insulate the backside of the door and trim off the radiator and install the pre-start fan. Huge project, felt good to here it run again.

To flash these you have to access the rectifier and you have to pull it apart to a pretty good degree. The fellow who repaired it ran a couple of leads to an external terminal so if it happens again we do not even have to unhook anything. Here is the process. With it running take a 12 volt battery and go pos to pos, neg to neg at the rectifyer for just an instant and wala your making power again.

1525
Welcome to my office. This is our free campground across the street.

1530

Here is before and after:eek:

1527
At this point the divider wall rad. and blower were still to come. A completed photo at night to highlight the new LED light strips is comming. Thanks for the help with the pics. Dale.

[gmcbuffalo]

Joe
Why not use a relay to power the prestart blower fan. Using the preheat lead to close the circuit that way you are not pull too many Amp thru the preheat circuit and the fan run on it's own circuit.
GregM

[rfoster]

Congrats on the Generator Compartment Redo. Looks great,

My insulation is becoming more fragile with age, will probably have to replace it in the not to distant future. Keep all the details on file.:cool:

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Greg

I chose not to hook into the glow plugs and plan on giving it its own switch, there is a spare right next to the auto-start on the control panel. Jon suggested giving it a switch with a timer.

I do not understand what you mean by using the preheat lead to close the circuit? I did not think I needed a relay, don't know how mant amps that fan pulls but I don't think it's more than a simple toggle can handle?

I would prefer to keep things simple? What say you?

Thanks Rodge, I went out there with a drink last night and just stood there and looked at it for a while:rolleyes: I'm sure you have been there.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Greg.. this is a case where Joe can ventilate the compartment before start just by manually pushing a switch. It does not get any simpler than that.

I think you and I were thinking along the same lines by using a time delay relay (such as the one on the glow plug circuit) to engage the fan automatically prior to the start of the generator.

The important thing is for the compartment to get ventilated eliminating any chance of vapors or fumes from igniting when the generator starts.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Great looking job Joe. Take a couple pats on the back from me!

[MangoMike]

Thanks Rodge, I went out there with a drink last night and just stood there and looked at it for a while:rolleyes: I'm sure you have been there.

Joe, That's the best part of any project. Just soak it all in. Good job man.


MIke

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Well here is the end of a project I think turned out pretty darn good.

I need to thank Harry for his suggestion for the 5/8 fire-rated drywall, Carl for his info on the potential danger of the spiral-flex exhaust and a safe alternitave, Jim for his tip on where to locate the corrigated flex exhaust and the awsom LED light strips, Jon for his suggestion for a pre-start exhaust fan that was lacking, Dale for stearing me to Soundown for their great insulating products and most important Skiffer and JPJ for coming up with this wonderful idea POG. This would never have turned out this well without all this help from my friends.

I just spent a few minutes going back through this thread and all of the things I used and the info for them are all there for future referance for all.

If anyone would like some help with this project in the furure I do not drive truck in the winter and will work for food;)

1533
This pic. is with no flash at night! We could not see in there in daylight before.

1534

1535

1536

1537

[truk4u]

Nice job Joe...;)

[Jerry Winchester]

Very nice.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

OUTSTANDING. How is the sound levl compared to the old set up?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

It is noticably quieter, but just a little. I still have to do the door.

The lions share of sound comes from under the bay. Never really ever did hear exhaust, it's out the roof at the rear.

When I install the fan on the rear floor opening I may experiment with baffeling that duct.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

It is noticably quieter, but just a little. I still have to do the door.

The lions share of sound comes from under the bay. Never really ever did hear exhaust, it's out the roof at the rear.

When I install the fan on the rear floor opening I may experiment with baffeling that duct.


Hi Joe, no offense intended. I'm not Bull Doging you! I was just interested in knowing if you finished your project and forgot to give a final report as to weather the compartment was quieter on completion, or not?
I really didn't think my question would be construed as rude and impolite!
If you don't want to answer yet just let it go by. :cool:

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Insulated the door but have not installed the fan.

[win42]

Cripes Jim. There are people watching your project of finding a bus to buy, but they are too polite to ask. Joe has done a good job on his project to date and doesn't need to be bull dogged. Cool it jack!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

It will never be completely finished. That is its beauty and attraction.

[BrianE]

Joe,
You're a great philosopher. Thanks for your down to earth insight. And by the way, you are not a crumsnatcher and in my opinion the name is not descriptive of your respected position in our group. :)

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Brian

What did the bathtub say to the toilet bowl?

I may have to kiss a little butt but I will not take any crap:rolleyes:

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Or Joe it could go, I might take all your crap, but I don't have to kiss your but.;)

JIM:D you know what I mean.

[Joe Camper]

Reviving this thread for those who may not have been around back then.

I just helped with another spiral flex exhaust with a 1piece nonseemed corrigated pipe.

This is a great upgrade for all our generators.

10889

[Gil_J]

Joe,

Where can this be purchased?

[Joe Camper]

Geib Corp.
Franklin Park, Ill.
1 847 455 4550

All 3 times I recieved product from them it was perfect perfect. Over the phone less than a week turnaround.

[Joe Camper]

14549

14550

14551

Here we go again. A forklift is the preferable tool for this job but if you're very careful you can get away with a tractor as small as this this thing was just barely big enough to pick up one end and then the other. I just took my time and went back and forth and blocked it up till it was high enough and I got her into the back of my 1ton van.

This was a great thread to revisit for this project. This gen has 20 some thousand hrs on it. Still made good reliable power. Wanted to get a bran new one and use this for backup at the lodge.

Nope.

It would of had to be destroyed and an afadavid signed with pictures showing a hole punched in the block at the serial number along with the rest of the documentation or u can not get the same replacement.

Any outright new purchase of a gen this big will be one with a catalytic converter and meeting current emissions standards.

This one is getting rebuilt at the original manufacturer. Engine power source Rock Hill South Carolina the warranty it just the same as a brand new one it's getting a brand new head but this engine block will be rebuilt with new parts.


I'm going back to Sundown for the bay insulation I've used them on all the gens I pull since I first did one on my XL.

That'll probably be 3 weeks turnaround time but when I do get it back and I start reviewing a day I'll throw a few more pictures up that sound down stuff is the best stuff out there everybody likes it. The old stuff that's in there is just crumbling away lot of buses out there just like it too.

[Joe Camper]

14552

Just a bit tatty.

[Joe Camper]

14588

Here is what I was handed today when I picked up this generator. It should be an interesting read for all.

It's less than estimated they turned it around in under 2 weeks. Has the same Warenty as a new replacement. We will see how it runs.

I was handed the old head it's either a 17.5 or a 20, it's still good. Wasn't even disassembled they separated at the flex plate and the bellhousing and those 10 or 12 bolts comes off one piece. Anybody want it? I might make yard art out of pieces.

This came out of Senators conversion their Entertainer coaches. They're out of Florence Alabama they know how to build a conversion the manufacturer of the generator that they put in this bus in 2002 is still down here alive and well. it's a huge place in South Carolina.

Gadget guru if ever in the vicinity stop here,bet u would spend the day.

Hope u r all having fun at the rally. I just drove up I-77-N through west Virginia. 4 thumbs up for the West Virginia Turnpike, great Drive.

[Joe Camper]

Here is what I uncovered as I began the process of reinstalation. 2002 XLII

14605

Expected pile of funk, including mouse nest.

14606

Unexpected. The front half of the weight of the gen rests perfectly between 2 framing members and the floor was on its way down. Already a 1/2 in down. It was snagging the outer bottom lip of the bay coming in and out and that's why.

14607

Unexpected to see how generally soft and rotten the entire floor has gotten.

[Joe Camper]

14608

I will put 3/4 pressure treated paint it prevo grey and put this plastic tray back in. I bet if it weren't for this tray that floor would have been even worse, it probably saved the day the wood floor now pokes very soft.

If u pull the floor gently u can do it without disrupting the prevo spray foam underneeth, this is a big plus IMHO. The finished product looks like it had never been touched.

When was the last time u poked around on your bay floors? This usually shows up in the plumbing bay.

[Joe Camper]

14609

14610

As rotten as the floor was it did not separate from the spray foam on the bottom. Have to reput.I'm going to drop 2 pieces of angle in between the floor frame where the gen end sits so even if the floor rots again it will be sitting on iron. The demo is about done this is as much of the floor as I'm repairing.

[Joe Camper]

14611

3/4 in plywood pressure treated is not available in full sheets so I used a couple pieces.

14612

Didn't matter because I was adding angle to the structure to better support this end of the gen.

14613

I plowed out the bottom of the ply at the angles so it would lie flat and painted everything grey.

14614

Countersunk self tapping #14 metal screws.

14615

Some filler to fill in the heads and seams.

Runnin out of daylight but that's mo betta.

[Joe Camper]

So this thread becomes bay floor repair for a while.

Patching a bay floor at the threshold for the door and doing repairs at the center of the bus r 2 very different projects. Usually by the doors is where the rot starts and that's fine with me if u get my drift. Sometimes in the middle u need to use other methods.

As I was scrubbing and prepping for paint and glue the floor under the other end of the gen I initially thought I could work with became really evident I need to fix it. The weight sits very close to the frame but not right on it, the wood is solid but the picture shows how how much it is sagging.

14616

14617

I took a router and plowed out the floor from the inside to drop some channel in flush. It's just long enough to span the gap over to the next frame member. Taking this additional floor up...........your call. I'd do it if asked.

I'll plow another one in for the last corner and lay the plastic mat on top it will be stronger than new.

[Joe Camper]

14618

Now we have a bay floor capable of carrying a generator.

Some of your bay floors on some of your conversions were beefed up with additional support buy the converter some where not, this one was not.

14619

14620

Now it's on to the insulation. Soundown company. Good stuff.

[Joe Camper]

Now that I had a chance to pull a second liberty generator out I think I got it figured out.

14724

Those wonderful Folks up in North Chicago had the foresight to put enough lead on the generator that you can take it completely out of the bus and put it on the ground right next to the bus and the only thing I had to unhook was the exhaust.

14725

I didn't need to sling it with chains and use spreaders and have to deal with no clearance at the top like there isn't either. Led the generator out to the stop far as it would go and then just slide the forks right underneath it like sliding the spatula underneath a pizza. Remove the stop back the fork truck up 6 or 8in and lower to the floor. Maybe a couple hrs of work to get to this point.

[Gil_J]

Wow, even the air bags were still inflated!

[Joe Camper]

Gill as perfect a design as this, the devil is in the details.

The rubber mounts for the electric panel were all bad the box was flopping. The cooling hoses r 1 1/8 ID and they r 5 ft long. Well its about impossible to get this longer than 48in sticks unless u buy 50ft. So u buy 50 ft or u find some 1 1/8 in barbed brass couplers and good luck with that. Then there is the exhaust, that prob needs to be addressed while u r in there. Lighting. Brackets on the intake plumbing coming apart. ECT ect.

I think I'm going to do a search and find a source for 50 ft of that inch and an eighth and just bite the bullet by 50 feet of it and have it cuz all all the barbs I use when I do it that way are done good, but, still rather have one piece and as soon as I find that right fork truck to tote with me there r a ton of campers out there that need this and I can do it in a weekend, in your driveway.

14726

We pulled this yesterday and prob reinstall it tomorrow and I could have been prepared better.

[Joe Camper]

I can't help myself I love Reviving my old threads. look at how many views this thing has had. 17000 + views.

I'm out here with my newest best friend doing another Liberty generator Bay and he asked me to clean the floor up a little bit. Ravens is a trailer manufacturer that their trademark are the swirl marks that they put in all their panels. After grinding down this floor clean it was either going to be a whole bunch of swirl marks or I'd have to polish those swirl marks out where you could see them in at lease the areas that can be seen OR you can do this.

15512

First comes clean

15513

Then comes cool!!

Where else are you going to get this kind of stuff.

We also came across another Spiral Flex exhaust pipe that isn't actually broken but it's leaking Soot is building up between the exhaust pipe and its thermal blanket.

There is a company in Chicago called Geib Industries and they make stainless steel corrugated flexible exhaust pipe it's one piece it's seamless you call them give them a length give them the OD on the outer ends on a liberty it's an inch and a half pipe nipple welded on both ends and this one's 55 in Long these are the best exhaust pipes you can possibly put on a generator on a roll out.

Geib Industries

stainless corrigated seamless flexible exhaust pipe

[Joe Camper]

15514

Now she's a lookin sharp!

[Loc]

Nice work Joe.

[Gil_J]

Looking great. As always, I'm sure you have a happy client.

[Joe Camper]

Still chasing aux air leaks. Someone get me a gun!