Cruisairs - Demystified

[Jerry Winchester]

Since I have been on a tear of fixing things while ON VACATION rather than deal with them before hand, a new one surfaced yesterday.

The middle Cruisair unit quit cooling and after cycling it off and on, I was able to determine it was the condenser fan that was not operating. I couldn't hear it come on but you could hear the compressor and then after a few seconds (about the time needed for the high pressure limit switch to kick in) the compressor would shut down.

So I called Steve at California Coach (and I called Prevost Mira Loma as well) and they both came up with the name of a guy who came right out to the RV park this morning with the right parts to fix it on site. Way sweet.

This is a good time to clean off the condenser coils and generally blow all the crud out of the area behind the front bumper where the Cruisairs live.

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Here is what you see inside the mystical Cruisair unit.

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[Jerry Winchester]

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[Ray Davis]

Do share the name and contact info of the A/C guy. Everyone know's I'm a glutton for A/C repair punishment!!

Actually knowing someone local, who's reasonably priced woudl be a good thing!

[Jerry Winchester]

Ron Easley

Easley Marine Service
1539 Monrovia Ave.
Newport Beach, CA

949-631-0142

Full Disclosure - I called Prevost Mira Loma and they said they had guys that could fix Cruisairs, but I would need to bring the coach to them and they didn't stock parts and they couldn't get to it today (Friday), however when I asked if they knew of anyone local that worked on them, Dee (I think that is her name) the service coordinator said she knew of someone and would have them get in touch with me. And she called back this morning to see if it had been taken care of.

But not wanting to only have one option that I had not confirmed, I called Steve at California Coach (the guy who bought us the giant pork chops at P3 - Kerrville) and he came up with this guy's name. Turns out it was the same guy.

I called Ron yesterday, described the problem and told him I thought it was the fan. He concured and had his guys go by and get the motor this morning on their way to the coach.

This is exactly what I was hoping for rather than have to uproot the coach and wag it around Southern California looking for THE MAN.

I also called the Southern CA distributor for Cruisair, a company in San Diego, and asked if they knew of anyone in the area who serviced these units. They said the RV unit is completely different from the yacht unit and I would have to call the Cruisair people direct and see who could handle that.

Well we all know that is bullshit. The first people to ever work on my units were yacht people on Houston and they are used to hauling their stuff around in a pickup and fixing them on the fly. It was obviously just code for "I don't want to be bothered by any stinkin Prevost people so go pound sand up your ass."

Nuff about them.

[dalej]

Jerry, How much did that repair cost? I just changed a motor like that for $135. I bought it from Grainger, you don't have to buy the double shaft, they have a single shaft, saves from having to cut the one off.

I'll take a guess and say $ 575.00

[Jon Wehrenberg]

There is a small element of truth in the story the yacht guy told. Some yacht Cruise Airs are water cooled so the condensing unit seen in Jerry's photos would be completely different. But....the guy was blowing smoke out of his a$$ because not all are water cooled.

Dale is on the right track. The condensing units are easily serviced and the likely failures (besides dirty coils) are the motor or the start and run capacitors. There is a relay there that can fail but it is pretty reliable. All the easily replaced parts are available from Grainger or a local motor or refrigeration supply house.

If the compressor should be the failure point, just buy a replacement condensing unit. It is about $800.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon do you have a source, a phone number would be great, for an 800$ condensing unit?

I would like to go that route with one of ours, mabye two.

[truk4u]

Check with Mango, he bought one right after POG1.

Nice job with the pictures Crack Boy, seems you go on vacation just to get all the maintenance issues out of the way. I know the Chicks are happy with all A/C's running.:p

PS - I had Cruisairs in a Chris Craft and they were water cooled for sure...

[jello_jeep]

I hear Rosie O'donnell wants to buy your liberty, is that true ? :D :D :confused:

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I did a web serch on cruiseair and the closest dealer to Chicago is Detroit.

Does someone have a contact for us. We did band-aid repairs on one of our A/Cs when we bought last year and now the rear unit is begining to fail. If I can replace all 3 of the condensing units for 2500 bucks I think it would be the best thing to do.

Had a tech out this week, found the guy through a local marina, and he is going to get me a price, I'd like enough information to keep him honest.

Think of all the spare parts I could add to the Ace Hardware bay if I stripped the 3 old units:eek:

[truk4u]

Hey Jeep, you must be in the squeezins, what Liberty?:confused:

[MangoMike]

Joe,

These guys are the sole main factory distributor for Cruise Airs in the USA. At their facilitiy in Va, they rebuild units and sell for about $895 with a full years warranty. Installation on my Liberty took four hours at $75 per hour at their shop.

There has been some modifications from the original 1997 unit in the Mothership to the "new" rebuilt units. Including going from steel to aluminum, larger cooling fan and extra freon tubes. They'll be glad to explain the upgrades.

AAP
16388 Industrial
Milford, Va. 22514

804 633-9454

Mike

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Thank you Mike. Do you have to give up the old unit?

[jello_jeep]

Your JEEP LIBERTY,. like the one you list in your signature line!!

Now,, who is in the SQUEEZINS?? :confused: :) :D

[MangoMike]

Joe,

Good question. I didn't ask as I had no use for the old unit.


Mike

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, You do not have to trade in the old unit. Inflation hit because I paid about $800. I changed mine myself, and had a refrigeration guy spend about an hour on two units pulling a vacuum on the evaporator side to verify no leaks before opening the valves on the precharged condenser. We added a little R22.

As a side note, these are not new units, but returns that the factory puts into new condition. They are usually units replaced under warranty by AAP.

When I have had questions I have spoken to Fred primarily, but other technical guys have been helpful on occasion.

If you are going to change yours it just involves breaking the fittings at the condensing unit, disconnecting the wires and removing all the hold down screws. When you get the new condenser unit reconnect everything, and pull a vacuum on the evaporator side to remove any moisture. You can charge it using the pressure gauges, or the sight glass or the beer cool method. It comes with about 1 pound, 5 ounces if my memory is correct and that is very close to the amount needed.

[merle&louise]

Jerry,

Is there a way to oil those condenser fan motors? If so, it is a good idea to oil them at the beginning of each summer season. They'll last a lot longer.

Enjoy Disneyland!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Merle try oiling the motors on the evaporator blower motors inside the bus, usually built into the cabinates.

It took me numerous looks and attempts at the upper kitchen cabinates before I was even able to figure out how to dismantle it all.
The cabinatry can be described ingenious. Very slick, very well done.

The one mid ship is even more a mystery. This is one of the things that has convinced me that not everything was designed correctly in terms of being able to get at components as things age. A previous owner went in after this one and did a poor job of it. I have not got it quite figured out myself, getting it out that is. Its a redo that needs a redo.

A similar situation exzists in the infinity lights in the wood, inbetween the windows. I can get to them but in order to install them the way they are now, I would have to remove the entire wood trim around the windows.

Jon and Mike thank you both for the name and numbers.

I was curious about the exchange thing Mike cause I'm out here in fly-over country and was wondering about shipping. Didn't understand how they rebuild units without taking cores, Jon answered that. Stirring the pot on that nitrogen thing? Interesting stuff. I like it.

Jon we will go the same way as you, have a tech put the R-22 and the vacuum and I will R and R.

These are like the last thing I'd like to be doing now but at 22yrs I think that they have outlived there lifespan and reliability is a requirement for A/C.

[Jerry Winchester]

Tuga,

No oiling, no maintenance. They are not even very friendly with respect to blowing the condensor coils out.

I think the only thing you can do is keep them clean, full of freon and try not to run them in an extremely dirty spot because all that crud ends up in that bay and up in those units.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

There are some out there with oil points because the ones in ours have them.

Both the condenser and evaporator motors.

[Jerry Winchester]

Maybe you can oil one that came over on the Mayflower, but neither the old motor we took off nor the new motor we put on was "oilable".

And if you could oil it, it is not worth the trouble to pull the bumper down, detach the unit from coach, break the freon lines to the evaporator, unwire the power and controls then slide the thing out so you can take the top off to get to the place where you can oil it so you can then reverse the process and then pull a vacuum on the evaporator section and refill that section with Freon.

[rfoster]

unless you are on vacation

[Jerry Winchester]

And don't want to go shopping.

[merle&louise]

Jerry,

I had changed 5 (count them 5) condenser fan motors on my front basement AC over a 9 year period. I was told that if I could have oiled them they wouldn't have worn out so quickly. I think that that is BS because the middle and rear basement ACs didn't have any fan motor problems over the same time period.

Your fan motors looked larger (and better) than the ones that were in my basement AC so I thought that they might be oilable.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jerry

We have 2 of the 3 cruise airs up in the spare tire bay like your Royal.

The motors on both units have oil points and I was able to remove both tops to oil them without having to disconnect anything or pull them out.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, When you stand next to JDUB you will understand the problem.

[Jerry Winchester]

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Here is the amount of room you have to do it it, so without unscrewing it from the floor, I don't see how you get to #2 of #3 without removing them.

But it is all academic as I don't care if they ran oiler tubes up thru the floorboard and I could oil them sitting in the drivers seat wearing nothing by my underwear and drinking a glass of iced tea. I wouldn't have an electric motor you had to oil. That crap went out with the record player. This one lasted 15 years which may not be a long time, but I have used the AC a bunch on this coach, so I'll either replace the motor or the whole unit but you won't see me oiling anything but my shotgun.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

JDUB, you would have to see Joe to understand why he has no problem.

BTW, too much information about the shorts and iced tea.

[truk4u]

What a picture that presents!:eek:

[Jerry Winchester]

Look Crackboy, there are a couple of your fellow Liberty owners about three coaches down that need your address.

[rfoster]

I had to pause for a moment for the image to go away from that previous post.

Now point of correction: You oiled the home made ice cream freezer!!! And it was great.

[Jerry Winchester]

I oiled a 1929 single cylinder gasoline engine sitting out in the open, not a 10lb electric motor stuffed in a 5lb sack.

Don't you have some cars to sell or some Viagra to take?

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Talked to Fred at AAP in Virginia this week.

The condensing units are now 1000 dollars and he thought that 150 would get 3 to Chicago.

This fellow has been around a while. He is the only person I have ever found that knew anything about our converter, Hickox, and he knew plenty. He said he remembers doing buisness with him. According to him, the gentelman converted mabye only 10 or 12 busses, was very knowelegable, and put togeather busses, in his opinion, just as well as Liberty and Marathon. He is going to try to help us locate other Hickox owners :cool: when he gets back from a trade show he is currenty at in Vegas for the trucking industry.

He camps an early 80s MCI.

He refered me to the Prevost Prouds, I refered him to POG.

We talked for 45 min. and really enjoyed it.

!000 bucks for condensing units, wo, kinda makes ya wish ya had roof air.
But just kinda:rolleyes:

[Joe Cannarozzi]

We have had a 1 bad condensing unit since we bought the bus and another is marginal.

I really feel that I would be more confident of a member helping me with the swap and charge than a local tech.

What to do.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

I changed all three of mine on the old coach. The condensing units were precharged. I don't know if they still are.

I did the removal and replacement, but did not open the valves. My local AC guy was willing to vacuum the system and correct the charge (due to the length of the supply and return lines.

They pulled a vacuum and held it. They were all OK, so they opened the valves, and had to give each a small shot of R22. It's been about 5 years since that was done, but I seem to recall it was about $100. I may be off on the details, but I do remember the price was cheap and there were no issues other than the vacuum and adjusting the fill.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Exactly. It is the adjusting of the fill and relation to the length of the lines between the condenser and evaporator that I'm concerned about. One thing I've learned about these units is they are very temperamental in these terms.

The folks over at AAP said they are precharged and they would include high and low pressures BUT the the condenser for the rear A/C is midship and the condenser the the A/C mid ship is behind the front bumper both incorporating plumbing that is both lengthy and snakes around.

[Jerry Winchester]

And a lot of their problems seem to stem from being overcharged not undercharged.

Jack gave me a nice chart with the correct Cruisair pressures on it. Great reference piece.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jerry or Jack do you think one of you could take a picture of that chart and post it so we could all see it. I would be grateful.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

The pressure charts showing the pressures corrected for temperature will do the trick, but I believe it was Fred that told me the charge is correct if the flow in the sight glass is a combination of liquid and foam.

Once properly charged they do work very well. Like yours my runs to the evaporator coils are all of varying length so each one has to be fine tuned. The factory charge if I remember correctly is something like 1 lb. 5 oz. and a few ounces needed to be added to each.

[Jerry Winchester]

Joe,

Let me track it down and I can scan and post it.

JDUB

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Thanks Jon. I know that ambient temps when charging have a factor too.

Last summer I went to a local marina to find a tech who knew cruise-air and he showed up smelling like a brewery. He proceeded to overcharge the rear air, I think. Judging by the bubbles thing you just mentioned that confirms it cause he eliminated all of them. Plus what Jerry mentioned Jack told him about overcharging.

Now initially it works but when it gets down to temp and the thermostat shuts down the compressor and it continues until the thermostat trips it on again, it tries to restart (I can watch by the amps on that leg go up by 30 for 3 or 4 seconds) then it gives up for a minute or two tries again but never gets the compressor restarted. I've been told that an excessive charge is returning freon to the compressor in liquid form locking the compressor?

I ended up the season last year running that unit with the thermostat wide open so it would not cycle and adjusted the temp in the cabin with the fan speed as best I could. It would run indefinitely if not allowed to cycle, weird.

I can not stand doing multiple repairs on the same problem.

Maybe I need to buy some gauges and a vacuum pump BEFORE I order the condensing units.

I'm sure the collective knowledge of this group helping me do it myself will show better results.

Thanks Jerry that would be great.

[jack14r]

Joe,Jon is right about the bubbles.If Jerry can scan the chart it will help you,but the sight glass bubbles will get you to the correct freon level.If you get the freon to the right level I think the manual states that there should be 15-21 degrees of differential.With a set of gauges you can tweak the unit for the greatest differential.You will find that changing the low side pressure plus or minus 2 PSI will change the differential.Once you do one unit you will not be happy until you do all three.Gauges are necessary and a 30 LB jug of r22.You can return freon from the high side to the Jug,and increase freon to the unit through the suction (low) side.That is how you can tweak the unit for maximum differential.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I think I found the charts for the correct charge pressures in relation to the air temps.

http://www.cruisair.com/sheets/L-0261.pdf

Also learned that both inside AND outside temps are nessesary for the correct charge. Charts are on page 12 and 13.

How much is a pound of R22 anybody know? How much is a 30lb keg?

[Orren Zook]

How much is a pound of R22 anybody know? How much is a 30lb keg?

Joe, I'll make a couple calls and get back to you in the AM

[jack14r]

I think that R22 is about $3-$5 a pound,Joe you might not need any freon,just a set of gauges to adjust the freon.The manual states to adjust the freon based on the suction side and use the high side just as a reference.Cruise Airs seem to be ultra sensitive to the correct amount of freon,you won't believe the performance difference when they are right.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Jack,

That is an excellent topic for a seminar and a POG article. Have you considered doing that?

There are a lot of techs out there using all sorts of home brewed theories about charging a Cruise Air and if POG members could see the process and have a printed article in hand they could oversee the process when they needed service.

This would be a direct parallel to what we are doing with the suspension system because in the past it has probably resulted in many dollars spent chasing non existant problems.

[Orren Zook]

Joe,

You should have bought two months ago #30 was $75 in December (fuel was cheaper too), anyway current prices range $140 to $150. Do you have any HVAC contacts in your area?

[rfoster]

Does this mean that Lester's lesson of "Beer Cold" that we got at POG I is no longer the accepted rule of cruise air charging?:cool:

[MangoMike]

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Right on Fast Roger.

Lester at POG I, "Beer Cold 30".

Lester sporting the Official Hat of POG I, working on JDUB's Webasto with Wild Bill.

mm

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Look at them two soaking up info like a couple of sponges:)

Thanks Orren. I have decided I'm going to learn how to do it myself.

[jack14r]

Jon,I don't think that I am a HVAC tech,but in manufacturing you are forced to deal with all kind of issues which has forced me to learn about various systems.The cruise air manual is very specific in pressures based on inside and outside temperature.I will make copies the service manual for TN.My HVAC knowledge is adequate for me but inadequate to answer questions.