Does the Converter matter when buying a 20 year old Prevost?

[zupsic]

As I research acquiring my first Prevost, I’ve been looking at coaches converted between 1998 and 2003. The merits of going with a Liberty, Marathon or Featherlite seem obvious, if for no other reason than their longevity. There is still a Konigseder or Schoelihorn to call when you get stuck.

But what about the other converters that didn’t make it? Are there operational and financial trade-offs to consider when buying say a Royale or Country Coach?

Or is the converter irrelevant when you're talking about any 20 year old coach?

Thanks.

Chris

[PrevostNewbie]

Hi Chris Welcome to the Group. There are a lot of folks on here with many more years of experience than me with all the different converters, I have drawn a lot of information from this site and I am honored and glad to help when i can. Which converter is better is a toss up, like the Ford or Chevy conversation. I have my first Prevost it's a 1992 Country Coach, and when i was looking i really didn't care who the converter was or if they were still around, as I was more interested in getting my first Prevost Bus Chassis. I would suggest setting a price range and looking for a floorplan you like, and if you are not interested in doing the service work yourself pick one of the Converters still around as they will still be able to help. If you are interested in doing the work yourself as I am, the converter most likely won't matter. Regarding the Bus Chassis, Prevost still supports even my Vintage year, so parts and service on the Bus portion won't be a problem for a 1998-2003. One thing I would look at when you are looking for a bus is documentation. Find one that has the manuals and service records and you will be way ahead of the game, as that is where i spend a lot of my time figuring things out, what is worn, etc. Before any money changes hands, I highly recommend getting the bus inspected by a third party, not someone tied to the dealership or the seller, our very own Gil Johnson provides that service, and has done so for many of our members. Feel free to ask questions, and search the forums, use the advanced search to get more granular results. Again, Welcome to the Group!

[BadFitter]

Let's say you have $200k to spend. You could spend it on a 2000 Liberty that needs a lot of updating and deferred maintenance or you could spend $150k on a 2000 Royale or CC and spend the extra 50k on updating and deferred maintenance. At the end of the day you will enjoy your travels much better in a more reliable and updated bus.

[WinterStorm]

We can attest and 2nd the recommendation to hire Gil Johnson to help perform a Pre-Purchase Inspection (PPI). It absolutely also helps to purchase from a reputable dealer (unless there are complete service records going back years...and, even then it will only reinforce your decision and minimize any possible buyer’s remorse). Also, if purchasing an XLII model...have a nearby Prevost Service Center (e.g., Nashville) check for delamination - before exchanging $. Prevost can also perform alignments on all axles and then balance the new tires (if you are fortunate enough to negotiate “Zeroing out” your new to you Motorcoach...meaning, new batteries, new tires, Level III service, etc.).

Gil provided excellent guidance, knowledge, expertise and foresight during our PPI - while encouraging me to get as hands-on as possible to learn how various systems (electrical, air, water, mechanical/engine/generator, etc.) worked; what normal readings should be and where to look in troubleshooting. Fortunately, we also had the considerable expertise of Austin Hicks, Bobby Kerce and the phenomenal technicians of Olympia Luxury Coaches (Murfreesboro, TN) going through the coach stem to stern and Zeroing it out for their third time in @10-years of reselling our coach. Additionally, they are working with Inverter Services and Prevost Nashville to complete the electrical and chassis inspections and work.

When all is said and done, we will have as nearly 2021 new of a 2003 Prevost XLII Liberty Lady Classic model as possible.

Developing good relationships with Olympia, Prevost, Inverter Services, etc. for on-going Maintenance and Service is just as important as the initial PPI, having service records, etc. Particularly when I don’t have Mike’s incredible mechanical, carpentry and electrical skills (go back and check out some of his postings in POG Forums...the man has sic skills!).

Good fortune with your search (it can be a lot of fun finding the right coach!).

[georgew]

I have a 1998 Royale and I believe it is one of the best 1998 coaches for cabinetry work.
The fit and finish with real wood is what sold me and my wife on the bus.

The one thing you have to realize all of them are built on the same chassis. That is where you will have confidence in parts and repair by the Prevost Network. Furthermore there are numerous facilities doing repair and modernization to these older chassis.

This forum and another one that has restrictive policies for its members who will give you explicit advice on any problem you have with which ever coach you purchase.

Not like a Facebook group that will have numerous people chiming in with little knowledge about your question and giving off the cuff remarks.

The Royale is a very simplistic coach that doesn't rely on a lot of electronics for operations of bus components.
Each converter had different niches in their coaches. If you have a question post your soon to be determined coach and what issue you are having, and you will get help from people who have in most instance had the same problem.

Most of the issues people have are with subsystems which are common to all converters.

The main thing is you are looking at a Prevost which is the safest RV built. The other RV's on the road are best described as sticks and staples that are mostly scrap when involved in an accident.

I am new to the RV world. Never stepped in an RV prior to August 2019. Did a bunch of research and fortunate to come across a individual selling RV's close to me in NC. He was showing me a couple of coaches and as we talked struck a cord about the cars he had in his shop rebuilding.
Her said if you want a real solid coach come look at mine. It is a Royale 1998 # 235 and mine is a 1998 # 225 small world.

You can't go wrong with a Prevost chassis as long as you get Gil Johnson to inspect it before purchase.

You are in the resale market and every dealer will tell you it is the greatest and nothing wrong. Buying from an individual can get you a better price point on a coach but beware. Most will tell you everything is perfect and works great. Again you need Gil to look at it. He will go to the coach and do a full inspection.
The best part is if you can accompany Gil you will get a education in operating the coach. If you don't buy that coach it will be a great education in operating a Prevost coach.
I will be glad to talk about my experience

n

[zupsic]

Thank you all, I appreciate the welcome and the thoughtful replies. After thirty years of buying and flying airplanes, I finally found something more confusing and complex...the Prevost Coach. There does however seem to be a lot of similarities in the decision making tree.

You have all touched on different avenues to the ultimate coach. Where I am trying to go with my question is how do I underwrite each one. First and specifically from the converter standpoint. For instance, Mike if the starting point was exactly the same and the costs exactly the same, would your end coach have a better resale value if it was a Country Coach or a Liberty. Les, if there were a Liberty and Royale sitting side-by-side, each costing $150,000 and each requiring $50,000 to update and address deferred maintenance to your satisfaction, which coach would you pick? Greg & Deb, would you spend the same resources zeroing a 2003 XLII Country Coach? In short, are there different inherit values for each converter, with everything else balancing out, that would make you pick one over the other?

There are seven 2003 Prevost XLII listed for sale on the site. Putting slides aside for the moment (I prefer none) and the litany of features I am going to have to personally value, how does a newbie value the word that comes after word Prevost: Country Coach, Royale, Marathon, Featherlite, Liberty, Millennium. Or in the grand scheme of things, is it irrelevant from a valuation standpoint?

I appreciate you helping me get my head around this.

Chris

[WinterStorm]

Hi Chris,
This will be our 1st Prevost, too. Still undergoing Prep at Olympia...they are doing a tremendous amount of work (completely reupholstering from the entry door, entire dash, Driver’s and passenger’s seats, headboard; and all column/valance cloth materials throughout. Rebuilding Independent Front Suspension, new GE Profile French Door refrigerator, new ceiling fan/light, new LED headlights & fog lights, LED bulbs throughout, LED exterior side lights, new Entry keypad and doorbell/video, new TV’s and Exterior Entertainment center, new Magnum 12v Pure Sine Inverters and Generator Watchdog, etc.).

For us, initially we thought we were interested in a double slide Royale due to the beautiful craftsmanship of their woodwork and simplicity of its systems. We learned that unless you jump on a listing immediately (particularly this Covid-19 year) the bus was Sold and gone. I suspect that many of the listings you’ve identified may likewise have already Sold?

I drafted a letter to each of the XLII converters (Liberty, The Motorcoach Exchange and Marathon) and dealerships known to handle multiple brands for resale/renovations (e.g., Olympia, Legacy, Panterra) describing specifically what we were looking for, price range, etc.
For us it was the condition of the coach for its chassis year & price; the layout/design...preferred non-slide with split baths and a North-South oriented bed; definitely XLII vs. H3-45; non-DEF, Classic/Royale/Country Coach without Crestron, iPads and other advanced electronics. (We believe slides and advanced/programmed electronics repairs are the leading cause of coaches being in the shop vs. driven and used. :-)
Seems these Prevost rarely have engine or transmission issues, if properly Maintained and driven.

We asked the owners/General Managers to let us know when they were anticipating such a coach coming in as a trade-in, consignment or something they sourced directly...to give us a better chance of actually securing the coach vs. taking a chance with Prevost Stuff and other listings (not that there is anything wrong with them...we just couldn’t seem to learn of a coach’s availability before someone else heard or saw it first!).

Austin Hicks (Partner/General Manager at Olympia Luxury Motorcoach) contacted us about a couple Liberty coaches he had coming in...a single slide Liberty Elegant Lady and a non-slide Liberty Classic - which had a breakfast bar vs. dinette or J-lounge.

We drove up to Olympia and were allowed to stay with the non-slide coach we selected from @8 a.m. to nearly 9 p.m. for six days! Gil and I stepped through the PPI over the course of several days; while Austin, Bobby, Terry, Jobe, and the rest of the technical team answered our every question! It was an incredible experience (and, has continued to be a great relationship while Olympia works to get the completed coach ready for delivery).

Austin and Bobby let us know what and how Olympia would be updating the coach. Meanwhile, we have asked for and added numerous items (refrigerator, Inverters, Centramatic wheel Balancers, TPMS, back-up & side cameras, a 2nd Lafer Kiri Euro recliner, etc.) that have added to the timeline.

Hopefully, everyone will have their own preference/favorite conversion. I would expect Country Coach owners to love their coach, same for Parliament, Marathon, Millennium, Liberty, etc. - otherwise, they’re driving around in an awfully expensive regret!

If you are not purchasing from an individual (which might allow you to purchase cheaper...just be careful that you don’t get what you paid for!)...and, once you have decided on your own personal preference of conversion, layout and model (XL, XLII, XL3 or H3-45) and budget. The next thing to negotiate is what the converter/dealership is willing to upgrade for the price?

Some dealers just resell “as is” - meaning you roll the dice hoping the bus operates as nice as it looks (most will clean the coach to get best price). As is generally means some room for negotiation on price.

In our case, we were so impressed - not just with the operations at Olympia but, with the lengthy list of things they were already planning to do to the coach (regardless of whether we purchased). In all the years of owning high-end cars, motorcycles and houses...I have never encountered anywhere that did so much to a vehicle! I don’t mean some car dealership’s cursory 150 item checklist to make it “certified” and therefore more costly because someone looked at a few things and checked-off a list. I mean REAL physical upgrades...rebuilding brake calipers, if needed. Reworking the wet bay; rebuilding Independent Front Suspension, upgrading the headlights and fog lights to LED’s for better visibility and safety.

Typically, the price is set with this type of purchase...since the dealership is investing so much back into the coach in parts and labor. Therefore, it behooves you to negotiate for additional work, parts and dealer-covered labor...to add to your coach’s value.

Finally, to answer your question...Yes, I would have been willing to spend the same dollar amount to upgrade/Zero-out a Country Coach or Royale as our Liberty Classic. But, the reason why is because of the true craftsmanship and amount of no-added-cost-to-us list of things that Olympia does as standard practice to EVERY one of their coaches...doesn’t matter if it was a 2015 Liberty Elegant Lady H3-45 or our 18-year old XLII Liberty Lady Classic!

I have never known a BMW, Lexus or Mercedes dealer that did anything 1% close to what Olympia is doing for us/our coach!
Generally, Newmar or Tiffin, BMW, etc. just hands you the keys at the time of purchase and says come back for Warranty repairs...which is why so many fiberglass coaches spend their first three years back with the manufacturer or local dealer undergoing constant Warranty repairs...instead of being driven.

Good luck in your search. As long as it says Prevost and has been maintained consistently you can’t go wrong. Just remember to look beyond the cosmetics and deep at the systems, chassis, engine, hoses, air lines/valves, etc. - if you have the mechanical aptitude or, with someone like Gil Johnson - that does. Good hunting!

[PrevostNewbie]

Hi Chris, I looked at many Prevost before I pulled the cord on the bus i have now, and in my search i came to realized that you will never find 2 busses alike. Even the same year, same Converter. The differences like floorplans, color schemes, carpet vs tile, Table for 2 vs. booth seating. In actuality buying a bus is more like buying a house than a car, when you see the bus for you it will be obvious. Heck, my bus needed so much work, it actually picked me! Don't get overwhelmed, and enjoy the purchase Journey, This is a great group and all of us are here to help you out.

[zupsic]

Thank you all for the encouragement and guidance.

I’m proceeding with the conclusion that the actual converter when looking for a nearly 20 year old XLII is irrelevant. Or at least tertiary to a whole list of other factors.

Greg & Deb, your post outlining the course you followed was most interesting. Thank you for taking all the time. I get now why you say yes, you would have done it all on a Country Coach. (Although statistically, when I look at what Olympia has sold, which means what they have bought to sell, it is more likely than not going to be a Liberty.)

I have a message into Austin Hicks and Gil Johnson.

It has become apparent that it’s highly unlikely I’ll be able to find what I want and just drive off. Almost everyone talks or infers to finding the right starting point and then spending the time and money to get it to the coach you want. Which brings me to two other questions:

Besides Olympia, who else would you put on the list to contact? And just for a starting point towards understanding the magnitude, what percentage of total cost was the coach and what percentage was for your “added numerous items”? How long is it going to take?

Regards,

Chris

[BadFitter]

"Les, if there were a Liberty and Royale sitting side-by-side, each costing $150,000 and each requiring $50,000 to update and address deferred maintenance to your satisfaction, which coach would you pick?"

There are differences in how Liberty and Royale approached a few things. Those differences were significant to me. With an engineering background, I put significant importance on the mechanical differences. For the Liberty v. Royale example my choice of NOT having basement Cruise Air units puts the roof air Royale my overwhelming choice. Liberty utilized an aluminum holding tank that if not replaced, will require replacement so again Royale is my choice.

From an aesthetic standpoint, in the timeframe of coaches that I was interested in, Liberty catered to more complex and "frilly" (technical design term) decor while Royale is well known for beautiful woodwork, more yacht like. Certainly a matter of personal taste but again Royale would be my choice.

Many, probably most folks, chose a Prevost that "speaks to them" from a design standpoint. While that is important to me, what is behind the walls (more likely in the basement and on the roof), but if you can't live with the interior or paint job, you can't live with it.

[WinterStorm]

Jeff Rowe owner of East Tennessee Luxury Coach is a former Liberty technician/manager and extremely knowledgeable. He does conversions on the converters older coaches. My understanding is that Jeff installed the wood floors and breakfast bar in our coach...excellent work!

We’ve only dealt directly with Austin Hicks. However, I believe Gil and Les and many other POG Forum contributors can better advise based on their own experiences. That said, I believe that any of the sponsors advertising on the Prevost Stuff Home page are reliable and will provide a quality product!

People liken the interior of many Liberty coaches to visiting a brothel. Having never visited such an establishment, I’ll have to take them at their word? In which case, brothels must be very impressive and beautiful inside. :-)
They do tend to have more glitz (stainless steel ceilings...which people think are mirrors; perimeter lighting around windows/under counters, etc. - which, for us, adds ambiance. Hmmm, maybe I’m more taken in by brothels than I originally realized? :-)

Fortunately for us, our coach was a Tommy Bahama themed design...so it made use of bamboo for the cabinetry. What we really appreciate is that everything has rounded edges/corners...less things to run into on a non-slide coach driving down the road.

Attached is a link to a YouTube video Austin shot a few years back of our coach’s interior...it will look even better after Olympia completes their updates - including removing the beige cloth on the valances and columns and brightening it with white fabrics.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiunP-HpfbtAhWluVkKHdGiCIwQwqsBMAB6BAgJEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGq 2-bsG3JZA&usg=AOvVaw3If_zK-5lSRb5eRyFZrKb3

FYI - Austin/Olympia also purchases a lot of Country Coaches, Marathon, Parliament, etc.

If you find yourself drawn to H3-45 Featherlites...then, I understand that Donnie Myers in Sanford, FL pretty much has cornered the resale market of that conversion. I’ve heard incredibly good things and reviews on his operations, too.

Les brings up a valid difference between Liberty and other converters. Liberty’s reliance on Cruisair air conditioners on older XL and XLII models...which are basement vs. roof mounted (roof = less expensive and, therefore, easier to replace).

That said, Olympia replaced one of our Cruisair units with a new; and rebuilt two of the remaining three units.

A big factor in our decision to purchase a Liberty Coach is their use of Over The Road (OTR) air conditioning...which is what you see on passenger (e.g., Greyhound) and tour busses - where the air vents are along the dash and down the windows throughout the bus. The advantage of this is that you don’t need to run your generator and two roof air units to maintain a cool interior.

On the plus side, by purchasing an 18-20+ year old coach...they are almost fully depreciated! However, unless you are as extremely mechanically gifted as Mike, etc. - this is why it is SO important to have your coach Zeroed out (including chassis and air/pneumatic systems) and a Level III service done. Also, verify age of batteries (replace house if older than 5-years...highly recommend Lifeline brand); DOT date stamp of every tire...Olympia replaces any tire over 3-years old.

This gets to your question about how much of the Total price is our initial purchase price, plus any added equipment costs vs. costs of Zeroing-out that Olympia is incurring. A great question!

If I had to guess...not sure whether Austin is going to realize any/much of a profit from all the work they are doing to our coach? We estimate $30-40K additional for what we have asked to be added (realize that Olympia is covering much of any added Labor cost, too). With other outside vendor costs (Inverter Services, etc.) we were able to purchase at Olympia’s cost vs. us purchasing as an individual retail customer.

We initially bought our coach in mid-August and hope to have it by end-January 2021. Or, at least in time to attend the POG Prevost Expo in West Palm Beach, FL - February 8-11, 2021.

Yes, this might seem like a long time (remember, we said they are doing a LOT of work upgrading our coach!). But, not when taking into consideration the nearly two months time lost when Olympia sold their LaVergne, TN building and moved into their new/larger facility in Murfreesboro, TN. Permitting for the building; construction of their mechanical, electrical, carpentry, Parts and Sales areas within the building took awhile. Believe they only paved their parking lot in the last week...so, most of their Inventory of coaches has been kept off-site at a new local campground where they were able to secure Power.

We told Austin all along that they could take their time...just ensure everything is being done right. Which is exactly what they have been doing for us...including sending some of the upholstery back to better match the seams; sending the coach back to the painter for a re-do - as Austin and Bobby were not satisfied with the first results and effort.

Deb and I are extremely happy with Olympia...even while we wait patiently for our coach to be done.
Then again, we’ve said that if we won the Lottery tomorrow - we’d be adopting Austin and Bobby (and their beautiful families) the next day.

Hope this helps.

[zupsic]

Thanks Greg, all very good information. I watched the video and think I found Olympia's previous spec sheet; are you Coach 536? Very nice.

[WinterStorm]

Yes, that’s us! :-)

[Gil_J]

2003 and older pretty much keeps you away from processor based system in MOST conversions. So, from a systems standpoint, there's not much risk between converters. Don't think that buying a coach in these years would get you better support from the existing converter than the network of independents that support most orphaned conversions. If you don't love the floor plan and most of the aesthetics, I don't care who converted it, it's not a coach you should consider. Steer clear of pre 2000 slides without understanding the risks.

Asking most in this group which conversion is the best is like asking which is better a blonde or brunette. In most cases, the answer will be the one the person is married to.

[Joe Camper]

When buying from private partys.....If you ask me people don't put enough importance on the prior owner. The prior owner or owners and how long they owned it for is just as important if not more as the converter that you decide you like the best. If you get a bad vibe from the seller from a personal point of view I think you're making a bad choice if you buy it.

If the seller is a schnook it's a pretty good possibility the bus is a turd.

When someones passed away and family members r movig it on u better get the price way way down only God or possibly Gill knows what's there.

I've said this before and I think it's worth repeating when you buy from a dealer or private owner you're looking for a bus that the prior owner was a multiple bus owner and the only reason why he was selling it was because he's gotten another one or he's gotten old to the point where he can't drive them anymore or one of life's issues has come along forcing him then you're going to probably get a pretty squared away Coach.

[WinterStorm]

Hi Chris,
If you have any misgivings or concerns with your potential coach’s chassis/infrastructure...Joe Camper is the Subject Matter Expert to have perform a PPI on the Prevost portion of the bus! Man knows his stuff...from every comment I have read in this forum and heard from other owners. Besides, Joe has a unique perspective and humorous slant on most things...that will help make your day...while assuring you that your new coach is mechanically sound! Joe is to chassis - what Gil is to electrical and the converter’s portion of the coach! (Gil knows his way around the chassis, too. But, Joe is the one who can build you a new chassis from spare parts!)

The best thing is that both gentlemen will come to where you/your potential new bus is located to perform the Inspection. And, once you have purchased your “new to you” coach...Joe will let you know when he will be in your part of the country next, if you need anything done of a serious mechanical/rebuild nature. Again, check out this forum for Joe Camper postings, explanations of work being done and photographs.

[Joe Camper]

My Social Security checks are going to start in September and I've noticed Gill beginning to go senile a couple of years back. I had a Hickox, He went from CC to Hoffman fer cripps sale. Couple of great guys to go to.

[PrevostNewbie]

My Social Security checks are going to start in September and I've noticed Gill beginning to go senile a couple of years back. I had a Hickox, He went from CC to Hoffman fer cripps sale. Couple of great guys to go to.

LOL, both of you guys are amazing. :cool: