Nitrogen

[Joe Cannarozzi]

The next time we will be through Scottsborro Al., and thats usually a few times a year, we will have our tires filled with nitrogen.

Debs brother Harry is with us this weekend passing through with a load to Iowa. He mentioned that the tire shop back home, Meteor Express Scottsborro, now is filling all the company tractors with it and offers the service to others for 8 bucks a wheel.:cool:

I think we are going to see a very rapid increase, in a very short period of time, of more tire shops offering this.

[jello_jeep]

Joe,

whats the advantage? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Just out of curiosity.....Do they pull a vacuum to evacuate all the nasty air before filling with pure nitrogen?

Do you carry a spare bottle of nitrogen to adjust the pressure when you go from warm temperatures to cold temperatures?

I'm certain that to extract money from your pocket and insert it in theirs a whole list of reasons are provided. Please share them.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I do not know how they install it but there will be no change in tire pressure due to change in ambient temp. the primary reason for doing it in the first place.

I'll find out more but you know as well as I that you can't vaccume out the tire without breaking the bead so I don't know how they deal with that issue.

Correctly done there will be no more fluctuations in tire pressures for any reason.

For that price it is worth a try, I've got the moniters so I'll know right off if it works.

[rmboies]

This was just recently on our local news. Here is the video link, showing how it is done.

http://www.wyff4.com/video/11245948/detail.html

There is another article on the same website that states the tire pressure will remain the same, regardless of temperature change. Using more nitrogen (evidently there is already quite a bit of nitrogen in our regular tires) is supposed to lighten the tires by 3-4 pounds, improve the longevity of the tire, increase your gas mileage and the cost per car tire is $5.00 a tire and takes 5-10 minutes.

Of course in the south they are playing the NASCAR card, claiming that if NASCAR uses it then it must be golden :D

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Just out of curiosity.....Do they pull a vacuum to evacuate all the nasty air before filling with pure nitrogen?

Do you carry a spare bottle of nitrogen to adjust the pressure when you go from warm temperatures to cold temperatures?

I'm certain that to extract money from your pocket and insert it in theirs a whole list of reasons are provided. Please share them.

I am tending to side with Jon on this topic. I feel if the Nitrogen is available to you at little to no cost then it does have some benefits. If you are conscientious in tire maintenance, which is paramount to safety, then you don't need it. Examine your tires and check pressure frequently, take pains and do not let water into tires when mounting and use the driest air available when inflating.

To fill a tire with Nitrogen deflate it to about 50% and bring it up to pressure with the nitrogen. Repeat this process and you will have for practical purposes a tire filled with Nitrogen.

Some Nitrogen facts: Air is composed of about 80% Nitrogen anyway. Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules.

QUESTION FOR THOUGHT::eek:
It is claimed that tire pressure from Nitrogen is more stable, because it excludes moisture and the nitrogen molecules do not permeate through the rubber as does the Oxygen. If so then if the Oxygen leaks out and the Nitrogen remains then how long before you have a tire filled with pure Nitrogen just from repeated filling.:confused:

:) JIM

[dalej]

This is like science class......I thought air was CO2 (carbon 1 part oxygen 2 parts)

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

This is like science class......I thought air was CO2 (carbon 1 part oxygen 2 parts)
There's more to it than that:
http://mistupid.com/chemistry/aircomp.htm ("http://mistupid.com/chemistry/aircomp.htm")



:) JIM

PS : Dale, you start plowing yet?:confused:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

If the selling point is that the pressure does not change with temperature changes then someone is lying.

Your tires are filled mostly with nitrogen right now. Just for the sake of a ridiculous discussion lets presume when the tire pressure goes down, the reason is because the tiny pesky oxygen atoms are escaping, but the nitrogen atoms stay behind. Well after you have topped off your tire pressure a few times you theoretically have a higher concentration of nitrogen than ever before because only the oxygen has escaped and since that is what is happening, a four or five year old tire will never need pressure adjustments because the concentration of nitrogen is so high it has gotten to the point it would be if it was filled with nitrogen from the start.

As a gas heats up, it expands. Since it is contained in a finite amount of space instead of expanding the pressure increases. Saying nitrogen will not expand with temperature changes is hooey.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

As I mentioned earlier I thought it would be an inexpensive experiment concidering the cost.

Now, concidering the wide range of opinion, that experiment has become even more curious and interesting to me.

Mabye I will test with the tag only? We have those wireless pressure sensors and can get real time pressures for the experiment.

Uncle Harry just got back from church and said that they gave out a bruchure about the process and says that they claim its the TEMP. change of the tire, or lack there of, that is of bennifit.The tires run cooler at all ambient temps. Also added that they claim the pure nitrogen does not leak out the same. Says he dosen't remember reading anything about pressure but will get another brochure.

Jon seems like this confirms your doubt about the pressure issue but the added benefits of lowered opporating temp and reduced loss of air over time still makes it deseriable for enough people to see it being done?

Dale this is way better than Science class, the medium is a great big bus:p

I'm thinking there has to be something to this, very curious.

[mikedee]

1. Better air pressure retention is the main reason to use nitrogen. The single biggest reason for tire failure is lack of maintenance of tire pressure. Oxygen in compressed air can permeate the tire wall reducing tire pressure. With nitrogen, diffusion is 30 to 40 percent slower than oxygen. As a result, nitrogen maintains tire pressure longer than ambient air.


2. Enhanced fuel economy. By maintaining tire pressure will boost fuel economy. Nitrogen disperses heat more quickly than ambient air. By restraining the heat in the tire and reducing rolling resistance, you get better fuel economy.


3. Longer tread life. With quicker heat dispersion, you get a cooler running tire which helps extend tread life and reduce tire failure. Nitrogen also reduces oxidation which can not only lead to tread separation and belt failure but, when combined with moisture, corrode rims. Moisture can result in rust flakes that can fall into the valve stem, block the valve and cause under-pressurization. It can even cause the valve stem itself to rust.


4. Slows chemical aging. Filling a tire with nitrogen also significantly slows the chemical aging process of the tire’s rubber components. This leads to fewer catastrophic failures like ka-boom blowouts. Slower aging lengthens tire core life.

I put it in my tires but I have a bottle that I use for industrial laser operation. Is it worth $64.00 to do a bus, maybe.

See you all at POG III
Mike & Dee

[lewpopp]

Joe,

Did you say that there would be no FLUCUATIONS in pressure or no FLATULATIONS?

Uncle Harry... What church does he go to that hands out brochures on tire pressures?

Another thing....The word is consider, not concider. When you have a painful part of your body, you soat it in cider.

Lew

[Gary & Peggy Stevens]

I figured I might as well throw something into the mix about Nitrogen in Tires.

I found this web site about the Nitrogen Tire Subject. While this site is based on getting tire dealers to sell the Nitrogen mix, it has lots of answers to some of the questions that have come up.

http://www.nitrogendirect.com/index.html

Gary S.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

I called the 800 # for michilen tires today and after takling with a tech for some time she mentioned that the company provides, in the employee parking lot, free of charge for all employees, a nitrogen filling station for everyones tires on their personal cars. Said it went in last fall.:cool:

Tried to pin her down on an official comment from the manufacturer that nitrogen will extend expected lifespan for applications such as ours where they get old before used up.

Although very insistant it MIGHT and should, they are still not willing to extend that 6yr warrenty, YET:rolleyes:

She did say the manufacturer does recomend it over, plain old air:D

1 little glitch to this,the current availability/convienience. Everything else about it is a plus. I'm calling around doing a little reserch to see how available it is.

Next time we are through Scottsborro I'm doing it regardless, it will be a fun and informative experiment.

Mike

Are you running tire moniters? If not, stick one of your tires with a pressure guage when you stop while out on a hot day out on the interstate. Ours grow from 100psi cold to around 125 running. Check them on a COLD morning.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, I know you are an honest guy so I am going to make an offer.

If your nitrogen filled tires do not heat up as those filled with compressed air, I buy you and Deb dinner. But if they do....you and Deb buy me and Di dinner.

And the winner gets to be called A2.

[truk4u]

I want a piece of this action, so step up Joe, no heat equals dinner paid by Jon, Di, Nancy and I! Anyone else, this will be fun....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

BTW,

The reason the use of nitrogen is employed in places such as aviation is because in some cases the pressure is higher than typical compressor output, such as struts or certain tires, but also because the nitrogen is moisture free, which is its real advantage.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

All I can think is , what am I reading about all the info Im seeing that I'm mabye misinturpiting? Dispurses heat more quickly I would think will show up in a lesser increase? Well Mike and Dee can answer this by doing a manual test with a pressure guage and we can compare it with what I already know I get off our sensers.

If that doesn't happen we'll wait till I switch and compare.

Your wife comming with you to Wis. this summer?

If not, this year we will be in Fla. from X-mas till the end of Feb. Do you do that Liberty rally every year?

If all else fails who knows we could just be your next new neighbors:eek:

Tom, quite the instagater you are. Stop it:rolleyes:

[Petervs]

When Prevost sells the coach chassis what is in the tires? They always do everything the very best first class way, right?

I will bet dinner that they sell em with air in the tires.

As for the air being drier, well, as noted in a previous post on the Bendix air dryers we have on the coaches, I sold industrial air dryers for many years. The object of those is to remove the moisture. You get the air down to a dewpoint of -100 degrees F, which is 1 part per million, same as nitrogen.

The air liquefaction companies want to sell nitrogen, not air dryers because the nitrogen costs 1000 times as much. The sales pitch on the interne ( and in tire stores) is just trying to part you from your money, you can not and must not believe everything you read on the internet ( except this of course!).

Air is 78% nitrogen, a nitrogen molecule has a molecular weight of 28, an Oxygen molecule has a molecular weight of 32. Oxygen is not smaller and does not permeate more. Both are gases that follow Boyle's Law :
which states that:

For a fixed mass of ideal gas at fixed temperature, the product of pressure and volume is a constant.

The tire contains a fixed amount of gas, and the temperature will change from rolling friction. The volume can not change very much (unless your tire has a bubble on the side) so the pressure WILL rise with temperature.

Like Scotty said to Captain Kirk " Ya cannot change the laws of Physics, captain!"

Now can we please throw out all this Nitrogen in tires nonsense and get back to burning diesel?

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Thanks a bunch Peter....I think you just cost me a free dinner.

[BrianE]

Put your diesel where your mouth is Peter and burn enough to get you to P3 and back. We'll all miss you, your sometimes useful factoids, and Katherine at Kerrville. :D

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon

How could I pass up a challenge like that?

It's a win win:)

I'm still doin it.

P.S. nothing is free:eek:

[Petervs]

Jon, Are you sating Joe has not accepted your great offer yet?
If so, I apologize, I should have waited. If only I had thought of offering such a fine dinner deal first!

[Joe Cannarozzi]

While we are on the subject of food.

Anyone that will be traveling through Chicago and does not stop and allow us to have you over for a meal will definatly be missing out on good food.

We are 5 min. from the first exit in Illinois on I-80 comming from the East.

Torrence Ave. easy on easy off:)

[Jon Wehrenberg]

It sounds like Joe is a gentleman and will honor the challenge. All along I have been pulling everybody's chain on this nitrogen deal and I think if the truth is known, there may still be some out there, Peter, that think our posture is wrong.

I will admit to having nitrogen in my bay door struts.

[MangoMike]

Maybe if you had Nitrogen in those Hummer tires, your signature may have been different.

Mango

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Waay harsh. Maybe if I used a check list like I do now is more likely the answer.

Is the dump valve on the Marathon where Maxine can reach it?

[MangoMike]

The Marathon is not as "doggie friendly" as the Liberty.

But I'm sure other adventures lay in the future, providing you and the boys (plus Debi) plenty to chuckle about down the road (at my expense) ;)

Mango

[MangoMike]

Joe,

Here is some additional info on the Nitrogen issue. This is outlined on www.powertank.com website. Jdub just purchased one, I've ordered one and Ken uses his to power his blender.

1280




The Truths and Myths of nitrogen

Lately there seems to be more and more hype about nitrogen gas for tires offered by tire companies and nitrogen services. Some services will "purge" your tires of air and replace it with near pure nitrogen for $20 per tire. Some tire shops are charging as much as $5 -10 per tire to fill them with nitrogen claiming everything from improved fuel mileage to a more comfortable ride. Is there any truth to this? Here we will take a close look at some facts and let you make up your own mind. At the bottom we show the results of our real-world gas comparison test that you might find interesting. In this article we refer to "gas" which includes air, nitrogen, and CO2.

Claim #1. "N2 doesn't expand with heat like air because it's drier so your tire pressures stay more constant through tire temperature changes." Here's a claim that we've heard more times than we';d like to admit. Bottled nitrogen is dry, drier than typical air, and it is said that a drier gas will exhibit less pressure change to temperature changes. This would mean that as my N2 filled tires heat up, the pressure will not go up as much as if they were filled with air. The dryness of CO2 is also put into question since it is a "liquid" gas under pressure. CO2 vapor is very dry. Don't forget that N2 is also a liquid gas under certain pressure and temperature. The truth is, the differences in thermal expansion values (TEV) between N2, air, and CO2 at automotive tire pressures is virtually undetectable to a driver. In our own tests we compared the pressure changes of N2, air, and CO2 through a wide temperature range and found that they all expanded (increased in pressure) at virtually the same rate (see Gas Test).

Claim #2. "N2 permeates (leaks) through tires slower than air therefore your tires will maintain their pressure longer and require less maintenance."
Although it is true that nitrogen does permeate through tire rubber slower than oxygen and CO2, there are two things to know. First, the gas permeation difference between oxygen, CO2 and nitrogen through a tire wall is very minute. Second, this difference is made even more insignificant for N2 since oxygen only makes up 17% of air and most of "air" (78%) is nitrogen. Diffusion speed through the walls of your tires has more to do with the quality, the wall thickness, and the age of your tires. More often, tire deflation is due to a leak in the stem core, the stem seal, cracks in the stem, a bad tire to wheel bead seal, cracks in the tire wall, or objects like nails stuck through the tire tread. Also, did you know that your tires may grow during the first 1-2 days as it gets used to being inflated which would reduce the tire pressure. Tire manufacturers recommend checking your tire pressures often no matter what type of gas you';re using to fill your tires. Bottom line: If gas permeation was the only way a tire would lose its "air" there would be very little detectable difference between air (which is already 80% nitrogen), nitrogen, and CO2.

Claim #3. "N2 is safer because it is non-combustible and therefore less likely that your tires will catch on fire."
This is true and is one reason aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen. But when was the last time your tires had to skid on pavement from 150 mph carrying 75 tons of vehicle, passenger and cargo weight? The chances are your tire is not going to burst into flames because of the additional 17% oxygen content inside your tires especially since your tires are surrounded by air anyway. If you have ever seen a tire smoking on the freeway chances are the tire was overheating from under-inflation. Putting nitrogen inside your tire will not prevent a tire from overheating. "But didn't I read that nitrogen will make my tires run cooler?" This statement is false. N2 cannot dissipate heat from a tire any faster than air or CO2 nor can it decrease heat producing friction between your tire tread and the road.

Claim #4. "N2 is safer for my tires because air contains oxygen and oxygen corrodes the inside of my tires."
Although it is true that oxygen permeating through the tire';s carcass may cause a certain level of oxidation, tire failures are typically not due to corrosion from the air inside. Don't forget, the outside of a tire is also exposed to oxygen not to mention harmful UV rays and ozone, the occasional curb bump, random road hazards, road salt and even dog urine. In fact, the leading cause of premature tire failure is tread separation caused by overheating; the overheating caused by friction from insufficient tire pressure. Premature tire failure is typically not caused by tire deterioration from the inside. CO2 vapor is dry and inert and also poses no corrosion issues to your tires. There is, however, one other possible cause for corrosion of tires that sit for long periods and that is moisture permeation from the ground. It is recommended that a moisture barrier (plastic sheet) be placed beneath each tire before long term outdoor storing.

Claim #5. "N2 is inert and therefore will not corrode the inside of my metal wheels."
This is TRUE, but who cares? Air won't corrode your wheels to the point of failure either, neither will CO2. Metal wheels Don't commonly fail due to corrosion from the inside of the rim. Wheels are well engineered parts of your car and for good reason. They support tons of moving weight over uneven terrain and obstacles. Have you ever heard of swapping out old wheels for new ones because the rims were made unsafe due to corrosion?

Claim #6. N2 in tires provides a smoother ride.
Yes, this is an actual claim in a nitrogen supplier's literature. Since nitrogen is no "softer" than air or CO2 our assumption for the claim is that if the nitrogen pressure doesn't increase as much as air the tires stay softer as the tire heats up. This is false (see Gas Test).

Claim #7. "N2 is used in aircraft tires and the NASA space shuttle tires so it must have advantages for me too."
Aircraft tire manuals state that oxygen content in the tires must not exceed 5%. This is to minimize combustibility. These tires also see extreme temperature and altitude swings that your car or RV tire will never experience.

Claim #8. "N2 in my tires will save me in fuel costs."
Fuel savings from tires depends on tire pressures. As long as tires are kept up to their proper pressures it does not matter which "gas" is in them. And no matter which gas you choose you should keep up a regular and frequent tire pressure check procedure because you never know when you may have picked up a nail or other tire damage that could be causing a leak.

Claim #9. N2 will make my tires last longer.
Tread longevity depends on tire pressure maintenance, alignment, and a properly working steering and suspension system. The only difference N2 makes in the interior of the tire is that there is no oxygen being diffused into the tire';s rubber. Interior carcass deterioration from an air filled tire is not an issue to be concerned about especially when compared to the affects of heat, UV, moisture, ozone, and road hazards that the tires are constantly exposed to.

THE GAS TEST
Ideal Gas Law Formula Shmormula. I wanted to see for myself what different pressure changes I would see between N2, "air", and CO2 so I came up with my own test. I decided I could not use tires for comparison testing because of the numerous potential variables like stem leaks, bead seals, tread damage, flaws in the rubber, etc. I also wanted to test the gases in the most extreme temperature range as possible, as quickly as possible so fitting the gases in the freezer would also be a plus. Instead of tires I used high pressure aluminum bottles fitted with a valve and a pressure gauge. All were leak-tested at 600 PSI to ensure a leak-free test vessel. I did two tests; one at a low pressure representing normal car or light truck tire pressures and the second at a high pressure representing RV and tractor tire pressures. Here are my results.

[garyde]

Hi Mike. Where are the results? I followed your reasoning up to the point where you had results, also, since everyone is always attempting to be cutting edge with their coach and tires are a constant issue, what will it hurt to use Nitrogen . It's like the Hydrofoil on a Toyota. Who cares except the guy driving the Toyota.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I am tending to side with Jon on this topic. I feel if the Nitrogen is available to you at little to no cost then it does have some benefits. If you are conscientious in tire maintenance, which is paramount to safety, then you don't need it. Examine your tires and check pressure frequently, take pains and do not let water into tires when mounting and use the driest air available when inflating.

To fill a tire with Nitrogen deflate it to about 50% and bring it up to pressure with the nitrogen. Repeat this process and you will have for practical purposes a tire filled with Nitrogen.

Some Nitrogen facts: Air is composed of about 80% Nitrogen anyway. Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules.

QUESTION FOR THOUGHT::eek:
It is claimed that tire pressure from Nitrogen is more stable, because it excludes moisture and the nitrogen molecules do not permeate through the rubber as does the Oxygen. If so then if the Oxygen leaks out and the Nitrogen remains then how long before you have a tire filled with pure Nitrogen just from repeated filling.:confused:

:) JIM


Gary, Didn't we settle all this on April Fool's Day??????

[Jon Wehrenberg]

On another site I visit this was posted:

This is Honda's opinion
Surf any automobile tire-related website these
days, and you’ll likely see something mentioned
about nitrogen inflation. It’s becoming a hot topic.
We’ve gotten a number of inquiries lately
concerning American Honda’s position on this
practice.
When it comes to inflating automobile tires, it’s
our position that ordinary, dry compressed air—
which is about 80 percent nitrogen already—is
the best choice. That’s because it’s more readily
available, and the benefits of using nitrogen
simply don’t appear to outweigh those of using
compressed air.
The practice of inflating tires with nitrogen really
isn’t anything new; it’s been around a long time.
It’s been commonly used on aerospace vehicles,
commercial and military aircraft, military vehicles,
race cars, and even heavy off-road construction
equipment. Here’s why:
• To meet rigid safety and performance specs,
the required tire inflation pressures are often
very high, especially in the aerospace industry.
The tire inflation pressure for NASA’s space
shuttle, for instance, is a whopping 315 psi!
• Nitrogen is an inert gas; it doesn’t combust or
oxidize.
• The process used to compress nitrogen
excludes water vapor. Water vapor can expand
if the temperature climbs above 212°F.
• Tires inflated with nitrogen leak slower over
time than those inflated with compressed air.
Automobile tires, on the other hand, are subjected
to an entirely different set of conditions. Here’s
why inflating tires with nitrogen offers no real
advantages:
• Although tires inflated with nitrogen leak
slower over time than those inflated with
compressed air, they still leak and need to be
reinflated to maintain proper pressure. If you
can’t find a place that offers nitrogen
inflation—and there aren’t yet all that many
places that do—your only option left is to
reinflate with compressed air. Doing that
drops the nitrogen purity.
• Nitrogen offers no better protection against
road hazards such as cuts and punctures. So
no matter what you inflate the tire with, you
still need to check the condition and pressure
of the tires at least once a month as
recommended in the O/M.
• Tires that are inflated with compressed air and
properly maintained offer the same fuel
economy, tread wear, and ride comfort as
those inflated with nitrogen.
• Nitrogen for automobile tires is produced by
nitrogen generators, which typically get about
95 percent purity. But to actually get that
level of purity into an automobile tire, you
would have to deflate and inflate that tire with
nitrogen several times. If you’re not careful
doing this repeated deflation and inflation
process, the purity level winds up being closer
to 90 percent (compared to the approximate
80 percent nitrogen already in compressed
air). Because of this, those claims of less
pressure loss with nitrogen aren’t valid.
So here’s the bottom line: Nitrogen is an ideal gas
for inflating tires in aircraft, military vehicles, race
cars, and heavy off-road equipment, but when it
comes to automobile tires, it offers no apparent
advantages over ordinary, dry compressed air.
Our advice to you: Just stick with the air you

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

Jon, by what means did you post the previous article. Did you scan it or what?
Just wondering.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I copied and pasted off another forum where the same topic was debated.

[Jim_Scoggins]

The reason I carried around a 40 cuft nitogen bottle was to be able to get the 112-115psi I needed in the front tires. Occassionally had to top off the tire pressure. Got it cheap enough from a welding shop. Could have carried around compressed air I guess. After the tank couldnt deliver the needed psi I would hit motorcycle tires and trailer tires--stuff that sits a lot.

Engine drive compressor could not supply needed psi. Neither can current prevost.

My goal was to get the driest air possible and carry it in a covenient package

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Jon

Uncle Harry, Debs brother has had nitrogen put in all 10 of his tractor tires.

I am anxiously awaiting test results.

The trlr. he is pulling does not and the next time he is loaded and overnight in a rest area he is going to make cold pressure readings on both before starting out and then hot a couple of hundred miles down the road and see if there is any difference in the growth rate.

He has also been instructed to check them cold on a colder morn. to see if the press. drop is less or not for that cenerio.

[utahcamera]

Hello all,

This is my first post so pardon any errors.

If “AIR” was CO2 then we would not exist as pure Carbon Dioxide is a deadly gas to humans.

The composition of air is:

Component Symbol Volume
Nitrogen N2 78.084% 99.998%
OxygenO2 20.947%
Argon Ar 0.934%
Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.033%
Neon Ne 18.2 parts per million
Helium He 5.2 parts per million
Krypton Kr 1.1 parts per million
Sulfur dioxide SO2 1.0 parts per million
Methane CH4 2.0 parts per million
Hydrogen H2 0.5 parts per million
Nitrous OxideN2O 0.5 parts per million
Xenon Xe 0.09 parts per million
Ozone O3 0.07 parts per million
Nitrogen dioxide NO2 0.02 parts per million
Iodine I2 0.01 parts per million
Carbon monoxide CO trace
Ammonia NH3 trace

I found this site http://www.getnitrogen.org/ to be of interest. I feel that nitrogen is well worth the 5-8 dollars per tire.

My thoughts, worth just what you paid for them.

[dalej]

And I'm breathing all that stuff! ;)

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Tim nice to talk to you.

Jon and I have a bet for dinner on this issue. I am betting that the fluctuation on pressures will be less with nitrogen than without. He disagrees.

My brother-in-law has a truck and the shop he uses now offers this and I have wanted to get down there to do the bus but for a whole bunch of reasons we have not been able to. Now I will find out through him.

I plan on bugging the heck out of him so I expect it will not take long for some data that I can for sure trust and rely on.

We have a wireless tire pressure unit. Tires inflated with air to 100lbs at 75 degrees or so will go down to under 90lbs and set off low pressure warnings when it gets down below 40 degrees. I had hoped nitrogen will eliminate this.

Also I would like to up the current 100lbs we run in our steers to 115 but don't because in the heat they currently grow from 100 to 115 so if we start there they would be at 125+ hot and I think that is too much. I'm hoping nitrogen will remedy and allow this as well.

Nice avatar I like it:cool:

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

Did you cut your bro-in-law in on this deal?

Think about this for a minute:

You fill your tires. Now they are 79% nitrogen.
The pressure goes down. If your theory is correct it is because the oxygen escapes so now the contents of the tire is almost pure nitrogen
So you fill it with air which is 79% nitrogen.
The next time the pressure goes down it will be at a much slower rate because there is almost pure nitrogen now.
And so on.

After a while your tires are almost pure nitrogen filled and you haven't spent a penny.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Nice try Jon.

We will be putting this to rest in short order.

[phorner]

I prefer to just say no to 40 degree weather......

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

First, I want a certified independent testing labratory to verify the results. Second I want to witness the test.

Look at it from my point of view. I got an Italian guy (from Chicago no less) thats going to have his brother in law decide who buys who dinner. At this point I'm afraid I know the results and I'm expecting two guys to come collecting and I'm starting to worry about my knee caps.

Before you do anything rash remember that I know guys that know guys. I got a friend we call Denny (the undertaker) and he is my body (get it?) guard.

[Denny]

Jon

Have no fear when I am around. You know that I am the last guy to let you down.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

"You know that I am the last guy to let you down."

Denny, I sure don't want you to let me down....I want you to protect me. I have a feeling Joe means business.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

!0 lbs Jon he had a 10lb increase on his drives. It was 85 degrees he was not loaded heavy and that was after a couple of hours at highway speed.

He said that the trlr was in fact already nitrogened up so no info there to compare with but if I compare that to what happens to our bus, those tires grow slightly more 12 to 15 lbs.

I believe if he were loaded heavy and it were up in the mid 90's they would have grown more.:mad:

We will have to wait to see what happens in freezing temps and cold weather pressure drop.

It ain't lookin good for the home team.

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe,

You are toast. I got Peter on my side and he is talking smack. His post is somewhere around here.

Quit worrying about gas and get polishing those slack adjusters.

[Ray Davis]

Joe,

I hate to be a skeptic, but I think the only fair way to really evaluate this (without using an independent testing lab), is to put nitrogen on one side of the vehicle, and air on the other. Then measure differences between left and right side several times over a course of time.

Then, after a suitable number of those checkings, reverse the mixtures such that they are now on the opposite side. DO NOT simply move tires to the other side of vehicle. You'll have to drain and refill each tire (or set of tires) with the opposite gas. Make similar testing comparisons.

Unfortunately, saying tire pressure went up 10 lbs doesn't really say anything. There are a whole host of factors which affect tire pressure, and internal gases would only be one of those many factors.

Honestly, I don't know whether nitrogen does or doesn't "work", but you need to compare nitrogen against air at the SAME time, trying to keep all other variables constant. That's why you must test both air and nitrogen on the same vehicle, at the same time. And to make sure it's not tire related, you have to switch in your test, half way through.

Ray

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Toast? Is that all your gonna eat:D

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe, Now I got "big Ray" on my side. This is looking bad for youse guys from Chicago. You know I'm serious when the west coast guys are taking sides.

Trouble is the guns we will all be using are infrared thermometers.

[JIM CHALOUPKA]

I am tending to side with Jon on this topic. I feel if the Nitrogen is available to you at little to no cost then it does have some benefits. If you are conscientious in tire maintenance, which is paramount to safety, then you don't need it. Examine your tires and check pressure frequently, take pains and do not let water into tires when mounting and use the driest air available when inflating.

To fill a tire with Nitrogen deflate it to about 50% and bring it up to pressure with the nitrogen. Repeat this process and you will have for practical purposes a tire filled with Nitrogen.

Some Nitrogen facts: Air is composed of about 80% Nitrogen anyway. Nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen molecules.

QUESTION FOR THOUGHT::eek:
It is claimed that tire pressure from Nitrogen is more stable, because it excludes moisture and the nitrogen molecules do not permeate through the rubber as does the Oxygen. If so then if the Oxygen leaks out and the Nitrogen remains then how long before you have a tire filled with pure Nitrogen just from repeated filling.:confused:

:) JIM

You gotta give up on this one Joe. I'm still on Jon's side!

[hhoppe]

We spend lots of extra time in Davey's Locker trying to rid our body's of nitrogen before we surface. I think nitrogen is a detrement to mankind. Besides I think it makes you talk funny.

[Orren Zook]

We spend lots of extra time in Davey's Locker trying to rid our body's of nitrogen before we surface. I think nitrogen is a detrement to mankind. Besides I think it makes you talk funny.

I thought that was helium....

[Jon Wehrenberg]

I thought that was model airplane glue.

[hhoppe]

Orren: I think your correct on helium making you talk funny, but Nitrogen is our problem in diving. It is the reason we cannot fly for twenty four hours after diving amongst other major problems.
Why Jon is still sniffing airplane glue is anybody's guess.

[lewpopp]

Harry, what we're worried about is what makes you think funny, not talk funny. Keep up the good posts. always great to hear your print erery so often.

Stop by in florida and pick up my dented panels. My coach would look nude for a while.

[utahcamera]

FYI
http://www.psitiredigest.com/tiredigestjuly07.pdf

[Jon Wehrenberg]

Joe is going to settle this once and for all by buying me a Happy Meal.

[Joe Cannarozzi]

Well that article confirmed our results, no big difference.

What I did learn is cooler tire temps. do not automatically translate into a lesser pressure increase.